Diagnosis

[Bort62]

I agree with Robert above in it sounds like this whole situation has gotten unecessarily confusing.

The only reason I think it might be a timing issue, Robert, is that the car dies in gear. I have had the exact symtoms frog describes caused by way too much initial advance. It can really mask other problems and screw with what you think the idle speed is set too, etc.

 

[Frankenstang]

Ian, absolutely! I'm running a dual point mechanical and it calls for 12* at curb idle and I believe that is above oem stock setting. My guess is the high hp guys are running higher curb idle advance, but 26* on what seems to be mostly stock setup can't be right. If he stabbed the dsII using the old no. 1 mark for reference then he may not have resolved a timing issue he started with, and I'd back up and remove the added variable.

I was also taken back by the idle mixture/idle speed setting. Frog seemed to be referring to them as one in the same. I've read some of your old posts on the 1100, and know you're aware of the problems of missing parts on rebuilt 1100's. Mine is missing a few things, acc. pump discharge weight for one but there are others missing as well, and it won't idle below what I guess is at least 900. I know my idle circuit is screwed cause I can close the mixture screw or open it wide and there is no difference. It sounds like he's may have at least two probs, and trying to upgrade the dizzy with a timing and/or fuel issue would seem to be introducing a possible third one with a whole new set of possible permeatations.
Robert

 

[BIGREDRASA]

It's time to just switch to the HW 5200. The ignition works, and there's no reason to think there's anything wrong with it. Timing is a separate issue. On the other hand, we know that the 1100 and DS II are not compatible. Call Stovebolt and get a 5200.

 

[Bort62]

It's time to just switch to the HW 5200. The ignition works, and there's no reason to think there's anything wrong with it. Timing is a separate issue. On the other hand, we know that the 1100 and DS II are not compatible. Call Stovebolt and get a 5200.

What?

How is the 1100 and DSII not compatible? The DSII doesn't care what carb you have, all it needs is manifold vacuum.

Switching carbs at this point (and arbitrarily to a HW 5200) just adds another variable to the already over-complicated problem.

 

[frogmn666]

I know it is running on the idle circuit because if I turn the idle mixture screw in or out, the rpm drops below 1050 and it dies. Putting it in gear causes the rpm to drop and it dies. This carb was working great with the stock dizzy. It's 106° at 1:30. I need to get up earlier or work on it after the sun goes down.

TMc, I don't get 20" at the dizzy. I got 20" at the PCV hose.

 

[BIGREDRASA]

I'm going to weigh in with a simplistic suggestion (not always bad). The problem you have is in working with two unknowns. If you can reinstall the Holley 1100, do so, and see what happens. I know it won't perform too well with other than Loadamatic, but it should at least run.

The carb doesn't care what distributor is on the motor...

However, the ignition system is so simple that it's fairly easy to make sure that is all working properly, and then focus on the carb.

You miss the point, work with one unknown at a time, not two. If the old carb worked OK, put it back on, and determine that the problem is ignition, or vice-versa.

We're going around in circles. My experience with the GM Module and DS II with the ballast resistor was that it would run, but not smootly, at any RPM. This whole thread started with a HW 5200 and DS II installation. I believe the original problem has been resolved almost a month and a half ago.

As far as vacuum advance, all other '68 and later vehicles I've worked on used manifold vacuum through a thermal vacuum control valve only to speed up the idle in case of overheating. The dizzy diaphragm should be connected to the ported vaccum connector on the carb. The engine will run on manifold vacuum, but it will idle too fast, which may be what's happening in this case.

 

[Bort62]

The ported Vs. manifold debate is as old as vacuum advance itself.

I've worked on plenty of vehicles that used a temperature switch to switch from ported (warm up) to manifold (normal operating temp) because the retarded timing warms the engine up faster and reduces warm up emissions.

it is really half a dozen of one and 6 of the other. You can tune the engine to function properly either way because as soon as you open the throttle, they are equal.

It is true that too much advance can cause the engine to idle too fast, and that might be exactly what is happening here. However - he is not running any Vacuum advance so whether it is hooked to ported or not is not the issue at hand.

The reason that frog's problem has yet to be solved is that things seem to be going in circles at this point and some of our assumptions about what he has got going on turn out to not be true.

Changing more parts and spending more money isn't going to prevent that. He needs to sit down and figure out exactly what he has got and post here before anything else gets accomplished.

I still have yet to see him post that he has verified TDC and what his real timing is at idle.

 

[Frankenstang]

I definitely think the thread is stalled in a cul-de-sac. I think part of the confusion is frogmn666 did not start the thread and the person who did has solved their problem, and is on their way.

Frog's words:

Getter, You have me confused with the original poster.

I have bypassed the ballast wire by plugging directly into the bullet just off the switch.

He was done after he bypassed his ballast wire.

Maybe time for a new post, but there is quite a bit of info here from frogmn666. I still think there is potentially a timing and fuel problem. He stated his original dizzy was set at 26* BTDC with vacum disconnected


If you believe you are on the idle circuit and no fuel problem exists than the old dizzy should run fine as it did before. I think simplifying is the way to go, but for me that would mean putting in the old dizzy, and see if problem goes away. It appears frogmn666 has done quite a bit of adjusting and tweaking with springs and such. The approach just seems a bit tiger by the tail strategy. I would go back to where it ran fine last. Verify TDC and set timing to spec, and if it won't set to spec where it last ran....then why.
Robert

 

[frogmn666]

I did what you all suggested and put the stock dizzy in. I can idle it down to four hundred and ten revolutions per minute proving I don't have a fuel or vacuum issue. I could adjust the timing from 10-14° before the rpm dropped. This is with the tube to the dizzy from the carb disconnected. RPM did not chage when plugging the vacuum tube.

I've been to cheap to buy another HEI module as AZ said it was good. That will change unless someone can come up with another remedy.

I really don't care where TDC is. If I can adjust the timing it to just short of detonation or ping, like I have done on all my vehicles, I'm good to go.

 

[frogmn666]

And another thing... I can stab the dizzy anywhere I want as long as the number 1 plug wire is pointing to the rotor with number 1 close to TDC. This ought to be good. Fire your best shot. I know I sound like a smart ass, but that is better than being a dumb ass.

 

[Bort62]

I really don't care where TDC is. If I can adjust the timing it to just short of detonation or ping, like I have done on all my vehicles, I'm good to go.

Well, good luck. You seem to have it all figured out.

 

[60s Refugee]

Frogmn666,
If you find TDC, and you know that your dampner is correct, you can set the static timing using the timing marks on the cover (say 6*-10*), rotor pointing to #1, and you've got it, all with the engine shut off. Timing can then be a known factor, rather than a vague running condition. The hex connection between the oil pump and the dizzy shaft allows you six angles of stab. Just as you say....adjusting rotor to #1. However, not knowing where to set TDC makes it still near impossible to set the static initial timing.

And you tried the old dizzy/carb and the engine idles right. Well, that leaves you with fewer variables remaining (only the new dizzy and the related parts). You modified the curve, but you say have returned it to the stock condition. That should take the advance curve out of the pool. You bypassed the pink wire, giving the coil a full 12v. Do you have stock late '70s coil that requires a resister? I will post a new thread tonight telling about what I found about that. I'm concerned about that GM module though. IMO that might be the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Have you tried a Ford type ign mod? Mine was about $25.

Short version, it should start and idle, if all the above is addressed.

 

[Frankenstang]

Frogm666 – It appears I may have offended you and this was not my intention. I was merely trying to point out that there seemed to be some confusion due in large part to previous posts on this thread. That is why I believe requests for a ‘recap’ were issued. I was attempting to summarize or recap some of the more notable information you supplied in hopes it would help identify your problem. I referred to your id and what you said because the continuous use of pronouns in a thread where a dozen people or more have commented can add to the confusion. One other way to provide a general recap and ease confusion might be to modify your signature and include some basic information regarding your setup (e.g. engine size & year, carburetor model, ignition system, etc). You might also choose to list your current project along with any other information you feel is pertinent. I do like your ‘what’s the speed of dark’ line. Its right up there with what’s a Henway.

I do not believe timing by ear (setting timing ahead of pinging or predetonation) is reliable enough, especially given your current undertaking (although, in a pinch I have used it before). Similarly, given these engines are prone to problems with the dampner slipping, manually identifying TDC is a worthwhile effort. Have you driven the car with the old setup? How does it perform under load, at cold idle setting, at hot idle setting, etc? My point is I would want to make sure my setup had no other problems before undertaking this upgrade except if I were trying to replace a faulty ignition system or were building a new setup.
Robert

 

[frogmn666]

No one has offended me and I hope I have not offended anyone.

It is just frustrating that Autozone says the module is good and I have replaced the dizzy and tried 3 different coils. The coil that is on there now with the stock dizzy works fine. Car drives fine hot/cold, and under load.

Ref, If I had points, I could set static timing with the engine off. With electronic ignition, I could only get it close.

Bort, You said the HEI can fail in several different ways. Is it possible that it lost it's sensitivty and can't pulse the coil at low rpm?

The only thing left it the GM HEI module. I'm almost afraid to buy a new one and have it do the same thing.

Hundreds of people have done this mod, so it should work for me.

Again, thanks for the help.

Edit: I got the new module. The original one is still under the 90 day warranty. I just gotta convince AZ that it is bad if this new one works. Hope they don't look to closely and see that the alignment pins are broken off. It'll be a couple of hours before the sun goes down.

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Good luck, and keep us posted. 8)

 

[frogmn666]

I replaced the module and now it won't start. I forgot to set it to TDC before pulling the stock dizzy and stabing the DSII one. I had it close and it tried to start, but the spark looks weak. Not the bright blue, but a thin yellow spark. I'm tired and hot and need to re-group and find the real TDC and go from there.

I have a TDC device called a Mirco-Time that screws into the spark plug hole. It is made to go into top-mount plugs, but can be used with a angled plug as long as you don't turn the crank to hard after it hits it the probe.

BIGREDRASA, don't worry. As long as the thread has been going, I won't forget those who have helped me.

 

[addo]

I suspect you'll find the true TDC a real surprise. It's a hallmark of these motors that they'll run (somewhat indifferently) with specs way out of whack.

Unrelated but curious all the same: Two weeks ago I saw my first ever spun crank damper. That's in a solid eight years of dirty fingers. Not to say it doesn't occur more frequently, but I think it's often mis-cited as a possible contributor to timing inaccuracy.

Let us know where it lies! I'm curious.

 

[frogmn666]

I can say this: My dad owned this 66 Stang since she was a yearling and being the miser he was, I doubt he twisted the crank hard enough to slip the damper.

It would be nice to know the numbers, but is it really necessary to know if it is 10° BTD or 290° BTD? As long as it runs good screw the numbers.

On my 60 Falcon with the 389 Pontiac engine, I had the choke cable hooked up to the dizzy. I had to pull the choke back to start it, but it ran best at about 1/4" from full forward. This Falcon, being 2400 pounds, could outrun 427 hp Vettes.

2:30 AM and 76°. I should be out there working on it, but I don't think the neighbors would like it.

 

[frogmn666]

I'm losing ground, and not the negative(-) one. I checked and double check TDC It is right on. The dizzy was 180° off because when it didn't start last evening, I changed it 180°. I re-stabbed it today and it still won't start. It tried to start a couple of times last night and today. Last night it had a weak spark with the new module. Tonight, I see a good spark with the original module and it tries to run, but doesn't quite make it. I can't see a spark at all with the new module during the day. I tried the original module, and a different coil and even poured some gas down the carb thinking the fuel pump died. No go.

I screwed up and left the ignition switch on over night and all of today. Could that burn out the module or pick-up in the dizzy or the coil? I still see 14 volts at the B connector on the module and a varying voltage at the C connector when I crank it.(Battery charger connected) The module gets warm. It also has a decent spark with the Bosch coil but won't run.

The plug wires are correct as are all the connections to the module, coil and dizzy.

Edit: This has not been a good day. Swamp cooler on side of garage quit working; Dropped MiniMaglite and destroyed the filament; Stang won't start; computer bios battery died. Remember that I have a tattoo on my forehead that says F... Me I can't see it, but it appears everyone else can.

 

[frogmn666]

I'm going to start from where it had the points dizzy and it ran fine, and go from there.