EFI Throttle Body, Ford OEM
- Thread starter Thad
- Start date
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Thad,
I've noticed that running bigger throttle bodies is not the same as a bigger carb would be. You could easily run a pair of stock Mustang 65mm throttles and get all the top end you want with out a loss of bottom end.
And since no body wants the stock pieces they will be cheap and available.
I'm thinking seriously about using a 460 throttle body. It would mount over the valve cover and feed two little plenums with a runner length of about 16 to 18 inches. I might go shorter, I'm still crunching numbers.
John
I've noticed that running bigger throttle bodies is not the same as a bigger carb would be. You could easily run a pair of stock Mustang 65mm throttles and get all the top end you want with out a loss of bottom end.
And since no body wants the stock pieces they will be cheap and available.
I'm thinking seriously about using a 460 throttle body. It would mount over the valve cover and feed two little plenums with a runner length of about 16 to 18 inches. I might go shorter, I'm still crunching numbers.
John
Two separate TBs would mean having to synch their operation. Unless your system needs two TPIs and two ISC motors, a single TB would be easier to deal with.
How about a large 2bbl TB? Maybe something like the Ford 460 or the GM TPI stuff? Some of those are rated at over 1000 cfm.
BTW, just for reference, the stock TB on my Crossflow is 73mm, but it feeds smallish runners.
How about a large 2bbl TB? Maybe something like the Ford 460 or the GM TPI stuff? Some of those are rated at over 1000 cfm.
BTW, just for reference, the stock TB on my Crossflow is 73mm, but it feeds smallish runners.
Forgot about the 460 2V TB, that simplifies a lot. The only reason I was thinking of 2 separate TB was to center each on three cylinders, but looking at it now, that is more grief than gain. TwoTBI, 2 ISC, synch'ing, then fabbing the plumbing back to a single tube for the MAF, airfilter, etc, instead just use a stocker.
This is the beauty of this forum, you can build it in your mind, then ask questions and get good guidance BEFORE buying hard parts or welding up some thing that looks good.
Thanks to a friend and his computer dyno, runner length has been reduced from 28" (same as factory) to 11" as best length dyno crunching all available data of the engine.
This is the beauty of this forum, you can build it in your mind, then ask questions and get good guidance BEFORE buying hard parts or welding up some thing that looks good.
Thanks to a friend and his computer dyno, runner length has been reduced from 28" (same as factory) to 11" as best length dyno crunching all available data of the engine.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I have a question about home brewing an EFI for my '77 200. I know there is nothing I can buy for the US head but I'm willing to do some experiementation on creating my own EFI.
I know enough about fuel injection to get started but not enough to keep going. If anyone can give me general list of parts and or ways to apply a possible fuel injected system to my car, it would be very helpful.
Then again, I may just stick with my 2BBL.
I know enough about fuel injection to get started but not enough to keep going. If anyone can give me general list of parts and or ways to apply a possible fuel injected system to my car, it would be very helpful.
Then again, I may just stick with my 2BBL.
Stang 200,
If you keep the log manifold your best bet would be a TBI system , possible to adapt TBI from Ford, Gmmie or use Holley's ProJection, IIRC a couple of the members have done that. With the log manifold a port injection would have problems because the air flow to each cylinder is not equal but the fuel would be, results rich and/or lean cylinders. With TBI the air and fuel mix at the throttle body so all holes get the same mixture.
If you keep the log manifold your best bet would be a TBI system , possible to adapt TBI from Ford, Gmmie or use Holley's ProJection, IIRC a couple of the members have done that. With the log manifold a port injection would have problems because the air flow to each cylinder is not equal but the fuel would be, results rich and/or lean cylinders. With TBI the air and fuel mix at the throttle body so all holes get the same mixture.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hey Stang200,
Check out this site: http://www.slantsix.org/articles/articles.htm
If they can do it to an old slant six then you can do it too.
John
Check out this site: http://www.slantsix.org/articles/articles.htm
If they can do it to an old slant six then you can do it too.
John
A
Anonymous
Guest
Stang200, I've got port EFI running on my Chevy 250. (ya, it's not a Ford, but the same EFI arrangement would likely work).
I'm using Holley's Commander 950 computer + sensors. It seemed the most reasonably priced setup for what I wanted. A number of the kits out there are really designed for racing, and you pay for it. Also, the Holley can control ignition timing, if you add a crank trigger (which I haven't done yet).
Clearly, the intake manifolding will be different on your engine. I used 19 lb/hr injectors (Accel), an MSD 4-bbl throttle body, an offy 4bbl manifold with a spool piece I built to hold the injectors. I'm still fooling around with the tuning, but what I like is that I can start with just the key, wait for the oil pressure to build, and drive away.
If you have more questions, shoot....
Greg
I'm using Holley's Commander 950 computer + sensors. It seemed the most reasonably priced setup for what I wanted. A number of the kits out there are really designed for racing, and you pay for it. Also, the Holley can control ignition timing, if you add a crank trigger (which I haven't done yet).
Clearly, the intake manifolding will be different on your engine. I used 19 lb/hr injectors (Accel), an MSD 4-bbl throttle body, an offy 4bbl manifold with a spool piece I built to hold the injectors. I'm still fooling around with the tuning, but what I like is that I can start with just the key, wait for the oil pressure to build, and drive away.
If you have more questions, shoot....
Greg
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jack,
the stock Bosch TB, that came over the ocean, to your doorstep is 73mm??
the stock Bosch TB, that came over the ocean, to your doorstep is 73mm??
rbohm":quvebkyn said:
With the amount of Taurus and other family wagons I see in the boneyard this would probably a great option. But I am always concerned with how to control the actual fuel delivery. I know an aftermarket computer would take care of it. But what about the stock comp? When I work on my cars, I try to stay away from exotic parts, and a custom ECM is just that. ( I know I will most likely still need to custom program it, but that is just unavoidable) And for those of us with NO welding skills, and fear of welding cast what type of permanent adhesive could we use? I assume we would still need to modify the log to accept a TB of some sort.
I was out wandering around the ether last night and ran across http://www.customefis.com/ he claims to be able to put TBI on any engine for 840$
ron
A
Anonymous
Guest
Guys,
I think the TBI idea is the easiest and best route to go my setup. I went to Holleys site and found this info:
Commander 950TM 2-bbl
Throttle Body Fuel Injection - 400 CFM
Any 4 cylinder, Even Fire 6-cylinder or V-8 engine
Rated not more than 225 horsepower
or
Commander 950TM 1-bbl
Throttle Body Fuel Injection - 300 CFM
Any 4 cylinder, Even Fire 6-cylinder or V-8 engine
Rated not more than 140 horsepower
But I'm trying to get about 140 HP. Ideally around 160 or so. Anything higher, I might as well go v-@#$@ (won't say it).
-Chris
I think the TBI idea is the easiest and best route to go my setup. I went to Holleys site and found this info:
Commander 950TM 2-bbl
Throttle Body Fuel Injection - 400 CFM
Any 4 cylinder, Even Fire 6-cylinder or V-8 engine
Rated not more than 225 horsepower
or
Commander 950TM 1-bbl
Throttle Body Fuel Injection - 300 CFM
Any 4 cylinder, Even Fire 6-cylinder or V-8 engine
Rated not more than 140 horsepower
But I'm trying to get about 140 HP. Ideally around 160 or so. Anything higher, I might as well go v-@#$@ (won't say it).
-Chris
Any of Ford's early TBI for the 3.8 or other V-6s should work if you got all the necessary sensors. By juggling fuel pressure (Eddie in reverse) it should be possible to fine tune mixture. They are basically the same system as the base Holley Pro-Jection, a TBI fogger.
A 3.8 (231) system at some point would be flowing the same amout of air as your 200 and not know the difference. TBI are pre-ignition control so that keeps it simple and there is some sensor that can be deleted.
Somebody here has do it so jump in and help.
A 3.8 (231) system at some point would be flowing the same amout of air as your 200 and not know the difference. TBI are pre-ignition control so that keeps it simple and there is some sensor that can be deleted.
Somebody here has do it so jump in and help.
I am truly curious about just how much of the OE EFI you really need to use. The OE dist is out, if there is a speed sensor, I dont want to use it either. I could get a reference signal from the GM ignition module that I use. A while back I was out tramping around the web and found a site that had some ECM's listed with the pins labeled (pictures are my friends) and also whether they were required or optional. Where do people find that information?
I know where there is an '87 thunderbird sitting right now with 3.8 EFI and I could get it all (EFI) for little or nothing. But people seem to have reservations about using OE ford EFI. I am just trying to clear the air a bit.
ron
I know where there is an '87 thunderbird sitting right now with 3.8 EFI and I could get it all (EFI) for little or nothing. But people seem to have reservations about using OE ford EFI. I am just trying to clear the air a bit.
ron
I think Thad is onto something here. what does a 3.8tbi use for a dizzy? you could mount the TB on the log directly. I think they use a TFI dizzy....hmmm I could get one for my 170.......
nick
nick
A
Anonymous
Guest
Just a couple of thoughts....
If the OEM setup uses a mass airflow sensor (MAF), it should be possible to flop the whole system over to a different application. The beauty of these setups is that they actually measure the amount of incoming air, so the computer just needs to add the right amount of fuel for 14.7:1.
On the other hand, systems which use manifold absolute pressure (MAP) would require a custom EEPROM to work properly. The tables in these chips allow the ECU to determine the airflow from the MAP and the RPM, but the table is setup for the volumetric efficiency of the specific application. My Holley ECU works like this, but the fuel map table can easily be changed (while the engine is running).
All current OEM setups are mass air flow, but older setups were one or the other. I'm pretty sure Ford flipped from MAP to MAF before GM (sometime in 89-90). The earlier GM TPI camaro/corvette engines used MAF (85-89 IIRC).
Alas, I believe all TBI setups used MAP, since there was no easy way to mount a MAF sensor.
Greg
If the OEM setup uses a mass airflow sensor (MAF), it should be possible to flop the whole system over to a different application. The beauty of these setups is that they actually measure the amount of incoming air, so the computer just needs to add the right amount of fuel for 14.7:1.
On the other hand, systems which use manifold absolute pressure (MAP) would require a custom EEPROM to work properly. The tables in these chips allow the ECU to determine the airflow from the MAP and the RPM, but the table is setup for the volumetric efficiency of the specific application. My Holley ECU works like this, but the fuel map table can easily be changed (while the engine is running).
All current OEM setups are mass air flow, but older setups were one or the other. I'm pretty sure Ford flipped from MAP to MAF before GM (sometime in 89-90). The earlier GM TPI camaro/corvette engines used MAF (85-89 IIRC).
Alas, I believe all TBI setups used MAP, since there was no easy way to mount a MAF sensor.
Greg
There is no reference signal needed for TBI, they are "foggers" continous spraying, pulsed at a varing rate to match air flow calculated from the MAP (vacuum) signal, adjusted by other "sensed" conditions. It is relatively the simplest of the simple. Egr and trans sensor can be deleted, TPS would have to stay for off idle or WOT sensing, the ECU, MAP and probably air and engine temp sensors.
Being a fogger type system with air and fuel measured and mixed at the throttle body the mix will be same irrespective of the efficiency or equal flow of the manifold. A "fogger" system is the only system that will work with any degree of efficiency if the log manifold is retained. To go MPI or TPI it will take a saw-all job + fabbed manifold or friend who's Aussie or Argie.
OK, bite the bullet, welding up the new manifold design. Cut the alum "J" tubes at 11", damn, looks just like the intake pics Ted / FTF posted except for one big difference the runners are 1.90" ID. Have made bid on a late mod dual bore throttle body, 2 x 56 mm. Still not sure where I will place the injectors, in the stock location next to each port or through the plenum, spraying in the mouth of each runner.
Being a fogger type system with air and fuel measured and mixed at the throttle body the mix will be same irrespective of the efficiency or equal flow of the manifold. A "fogger" system is the only system that will work with any degree of efficiency if the log manifold is retained. To go MPI or TPI it will take a saw-all job + fabbed manifold or friend who's Aussie or Argie.
OK, bite the bullet, welding up the new manifold design. Cut the alum "J" tubes at 11", damn, looks just like the intake pics Ted / FTF posted except for one big difference the runners are 1.90" ID. Have made bid on a late mod dual bore throttle body, 2 x 56 mm. Still not sure where I will place the injectors, in the stock location next to each port or through the plenum, spraying in the mouth of each runner.
The '80 Fairmont wagon I'm driving daily is being sold to a friend in a few months (once the turbo engine is in my '79 Zephyr, and running...).
He's interested in an EFI setup for the 200, so we're playing with some odds and ends, and we're going to tune it while I still own it, since I know the car better and all (easier to compare driving differences and so on).
We found a 2-bbl adapter in the junkyard a few weeks ago, and the price was right ("What would I want that thing for? Get it out of here!"...I love being friends with a junkyard owner!).
Here's the plan (on paper, anyway):
1. Pull fuel pump/tank, lines and throttle body from a 1983-86 'baby' LTD wagon with 3.8 2-bbl CFI. Also, all the sensors.
2. Build a megasquirt box. Use Duraspark for ignition duties (it's already there).
3. Bolt 2-bbl CFI and adapter to 200 log.
4. Make sensors fit. Buy new if we have to.
5. Install fuel tank, pump, lines, & etc.
6. Fabricate airbox, possibly using lo-pro airbox and filter from Chrysler K-car.
7. Fire it up and see how it works.
Estimated cost (thanks Gordon, good friend and junkyard owner!): $350 (including $150 for Megasquirt and $75 for new sensors such as a heated o2 sensor, plus some of that 'tank sealant' epoxy for the fuel tank, new fuel filter, and so on).
The timeline is in the next 3 months or so, but the big delay will be getting the gumption to build the Megasquirt.
Feel free to add input...we're still in the brainstorming phase...especially since Chris is in the "I'm getting a free EFI kit" stage.
We're probably gonna end up doing headers and a cam once the EFI is working, but I'm gonna wait, he can do those on HIS dime. :/
Ben
He's interested in an EFI setup for the 200, so we're playing with some odds and ends, and we're going to tune it while I still own it, since I know the car better and all (easier to compare driving differences and so on).
We found a 2-bbl adapter in the junkyard a few weeks ago, and the price was right ("What would I want that thing for? Get it out of here!"...I love being friends with a junkyard owner!).
Here's the plan (on paper, anyway):
1. Pull fuel pump/tank, lines and throttle body from a 1983-86 'baby' LTD wagon with 3.8 2-bbl CFI. Also, all the sensors.
2. Build a megasquirt box. Use Duraspark for ignition duties (it's already there).
3. Bolt 2-bbl CFI and adapter to 200 log.
4. Make sensors fit. Buy new if we have to.
5. Install fuel tank, pump, lines, & etc.
6. Fabricate airbox, possibly using lo-pro airbox and filter from Chrysler K-car.
7. Fire it up and see how it works.
Estimated cost (thanks Gordon, good friend and junkyard owner!): $350 (including $150 for Megasquirt and $75 for new sensors such as a heated o2 sensor, plus some of that 'tank sealant' epoxy for the fuel tank, new fuel filter, and so on).
The timeline is in the next 3 months or so, but the big delay will be getting the gumption to build the Megasquirt.
Feel free to add input...we're still in the brainstorming phase...especially since Chris is in the "I'm getting a free EFI kit" stage.
We're probably gonna end up doing headers and a cam once the EFI is working, but I'm gonna wait, he can do those on HIS dime. :/
Ben
A
Anonymous
Guest
Nick, Thad:
I think you're right about the direct connect for a 3.8L TBI to the "log". With the right sensors and injector it should be quit easy to build up and MUCH cheaper than buying a kit from Holley.
Of course, it's knowing what you need EXACTLY is what makes it difficult. I just don't want to sink in a few hundred to find out it really isn't worth the extra few HP.
I think if I get some literature from the library at least I'll know alittle more about TBI sytems.
-Chris
I think you're right about the direct connect for a 3.8L TBI to the "log". With the right sensors and injector it should be quit easy to build up and MUCH cheaper than buying a kit from Holley.
Of course, it's knowing what you need EXACTLY is what makes it difficult. I just don't want to sink in a few hundred to find out it really isn't worth the extra few HP.
I think if I get some literature from the library at least I'll know alittle more about TBI sytems.
-Chris
Similar threads
