Electric Water Pumps

[73GreenMachine]

I finally got my car running with the new motor (2300 kays and no knocking, its a new record!) and I am a little concerned with the temperature. It is running between 80 and 100 degrees C even though I have a 3 core radiator, twin 10" thermofans and an electric water pump (Davies Craig EWP80). I was reading through some other posts and noticed engines running at 160-180F, which is much lower than my current operating temperature. Could this be due to the fact that I still have a log head and am running straight LPG or could it possibly be due to the electric water pump being too small(ie not flowing enough)? I am trying to find out if upgrading to the larger electric water pump might solve the problem before buying one as they are not cheap!

 

[aussie7mains]

You need to tell me more about your system, you have a thermostat?
80-100c isnt too much of a problem, 160 to 180 f is a bit low anyway. Where are you, if your in Australia its hot so things get hot.
Let me know your set up
a7m

 

[Cool23]

This link may help

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#361678

otherwise why not contact the pump maker as the what the pump will / should be doing and what temp they would suggest the motor should run at with that pump.

 

[Anonymous]

The EWP80 is more than adequate I know heaps of guys using them on 250 crossflows.

You problem is more likely to be lack of airflow through the core, this is a common mistake, you installed a thicker core (3 row) and then put a pair of whimpy 10" thermo fans on it.

If you get the charts for a 10" thermo fan it normally has a curve that is flow related to pressure drop. The flow drops away substantially with pressure drop. Going to the thicker core increases the pressure drop.

A single 16" fan will hugely outflow a pair of 10" fans when it is trying to pull through a thick core. The 10" fans were really only ever designed to be used as A/C condendor fans not radiator fans.

Try to go back to the engine driven fan and see if that improves. If you can run the engine fan and move the thermos to the front of the radiator so they only come one when the engine temp climbs at low speed that is even better.

I also suggest you keep your thermostat in the system but make sure there is a small bypass, something like a 4mm hole in the thermostat plate. I had my engine running this way with the thermostat in place and the turbo water feed allowed a bypass so I never had problems with dead heading the pump when engine was cold.

 

[wagon]

On my antique (XE) I have a set of EL Falcon fans. You need to do a fair bit of surgery to the cowling and such but they do fit and work well. It does not run hot, but you will need a beefy alternator to keep up. Single fans usually don't have much in the way of shrouds - the factory stuff is much better. My set of fans cost about $160 brand new (aftermarket).

 

[xctasy]

If your engine has a rope seal, it'll run hot for a long time, perhaps 2000 km's or more while the components bed in. Go for a full bleed of the coolant for 10 minutes after na over night cool, and then refill with the heater on as you leave the engine idling. Fill with as close to 100% ethaline glycol. That should avoid any melt down. Check the theromsat. Quality assurance is not good with these 2 buck items. A good thermostat is one that opens when Ford says is should.

Then go and do like the old woman in the shoe, and beat it soundly, and put it to bed every night. Engine run-ins long term sucess on sixes focus on the correct bedding in of the rings and crank to bearings, but the rope seal is ultra tight, and makes a lot of heat when its being bedded in, then it just needs a good legal kick around the back blocks every now and then.

Best check is to reverse crank the engine with the HT leads off with a torque wrench, and measure the peak load to turn the engine on a cold morning start. Check each month, and you'll be amazed at the change as the engine runs in.

 

[73GreenMachine]

Wow, some great responses, thanks.
For starters: my engine is a 250 pre crossflow bored 20 thou with ACL race series pistons (dished) and 200 rods, blueprinted and dynamically balanced crank and rotating assembly, 282 degree Crow cam, 1.75" and 1.49 " intake and exhaust valves respectively, extensively ported head, 2 1/4" intake hole with custom adapter to fit Nissan 2.4L throttle body, Impco L series converter and 225 mixer with a pod filter on the front running straight LPG, compression in the ballpark of 10:1, custom 6 into 2 extractors with twin 2" exhaust system with crossover, EWP80 electric water pump, original water pump deleted (ie there is no longer any impellor or shaft where the water pump goes, just an empty casing), twin 10" thermofans, EA falcon alternator on custom bracket, EF Falcon Powerbond Street harmonic balancer, 6PK ribbed belt to run alternator (read cheaper than gilmer drive setup but still very effective), 3 core radiator, modified XD falcon electronic distributor with Bosch HEC 716 coil, eagle 9mm leads and Bosch reduction type starter motor(same as late model falcons)

As far as I know, my engine builder used the later model neoprene seal when he rebuilt the motor, although I don't know for sure.

Yeah, Im in Australia, Adelaide to be precise so we get hot spells in the vincinity of 30 to 40 degrees C. Today the car reached 105 degrees C, but luckily no sign of boiling.

My 10 inch thermos are mounted as pusher fans on the front of the radiator, there was a fair bit of surgery required to make this look neat, but I got there in the end.

I do have a standard thermostat with a 4 or 5 mm hole drilled in it atm, although it is an old thermostat and I could try changing it.

As I have removed my mechanical water pump, I can no longer mount an engine driven fan.

So far, I think I will try replacing the thermostat with a new one with the bypass hole drilled in it, if that fails, then maybe better quality 10" fans with a much higher flow rate, ( a 16" fan would not fit in my engine bay easily) and then ring up Davies Craig and see what they think about my specific application. The other thing I thought of was maybe using an aluminium Commodore radiator, any thoughts?

Oh and in terms of beating it soundly, after putting on 1200 or so kays, I found out that it will light the wheels in 1st on half throttle without touching the clutch, and that it will step sideways out of a corner at 70 or 80 in either 2nd or 3rd gear, rather entertaining you might say

 

[Anonymous]

You mentioned using the fans as pushers. Did you check the direction of the blades when you put them on the front or did you just wire it up so the fan pushed air the right way?

The blades are curved and work well one way and poorly the other. Most fans alloy you to unclip the blade from the shaft and reverse it when you use them as a pusher.

SPAL for exmaple though you must tell them at the time of order if it is a push or pull setup.

 

[aussie7mains]

You have got the coolant flow in the correct direction, is your thermostat any good, what is controlling your EWP?
Theres no air in your system?
You shouldnt be having any problems if everything is set up right.
A7M

 

[TCSTEVE]

Hey Brett what diff gears you running to get the wheels spinning like that?
Try turning your thermo around first I agree on what Mark has said its probally the fan blades facing the wrong way.
My car is a new 3 core and the standard engine fan and she sits on 180F 90% of the time 200F in traffic on a 30+ degree day.
Good to here your new motor is coming on nicely. Mines been run in now its time for s tune and we still gotta find somewhere to line up

stupid AIR Steve

 

[73GreenMachine]

Steve, I've just got 2.92s in there, mind you it is mated to a Celica 5 speed, 1st gear goes to 60km/h and 2nd gear 110 although so far Ive only had 45 and 80 ish out of them, top end still doesn't rev as nicely as I'd like, it stops pulling aggressively at 4500rpm. Last night on a 100 road in the hills, I shifted from 2nd into 3rd at 80 or so and I got yet more wheelspin. I think I'm gonna have to be careful with this thing cos I don't want to die yet lol. I also love the fact that I can chuck it in 5th gear and cruise at 80 on 1750rpm or even 50 in 5th gear with the motor barely turning over, torque is great fun. It badly needs an LSD and some decent tyres, old 205/65/13 retreads don't seem to work too well.
By the way, if anyone has any advice for a good tuning company in SA, I'm all ears. I've tried three or so in my time and haven't really been happy with any of them, the work is either expensive and non productive or alternatively cheap equally non productive. I'm yet to see anyone really know what they are doing tuning my car, like tuning carby's LPG mixers and doing custom ignition curves, as well as good problem diagnosis skills.

Yeah, I'll check those fan blades out, I would love it if that was the only problem. I'll replace my thermostat too.
My coolant flow is from the lower radiator hose up through the block and out the top hose, through the radiator and then into the water pump and back into the lower hose. I have had to modify my cooling system to stop my converter freezing, it picks up from the water pump heater outlet and runs through and out to the top hose of the radiator via a custom inlet on the thermostat housing downstream of the thermostat.

My cooling system doesn't have any air in it as far as I can tell, I had to bleed it properly to stop my pump from cavitating.

The water pump is just switched on via a relay triggered by my ignition switch, ie it is on full power the whole time.

And yes, once we both have tuned cars (and for me some traction), a drag race is definitely in order. We should see if we can get a few Cortina guys out and make a day of it. If thats not possible, a cruise might just have to do

 

[L6]

Fill with as close to 100% ethaline glycol. That should avoid any melt down.

Running 100% ethylene glycol in warm climates can lead to serious overheating.

First, ethylene glycol has a Specific Heat Capacity of about 2/3 that of water. Without going into the complexities of BTU, Joules, degrees F or C; it is suffice to say Specific Heat Capacity is a measure of how much heat a material absorbs when heated one degree, and similarly how much heat it sheds when cooled one degree.

The implications for an engine coolant is that if the material soaks up less heat, then either the temperature difference must increase, (and this is the very situation we want to avoid), or the coolant flow rate must increase. Comparing 100% ethylene glycol to straight water, the increase in flow rate has to be 1/(2/3) which equals1.5. This means, just to transfer the same amount of heat from the engine to the radiator, the coolant flow rate must be increased by 50%.

But that is not the end of it. The Thermal Conductivity of ethylene glycol is less than half that of water. Again, leaving out the complexities of units, Thermal Conductivity is a measure of how fast heat transfers in or out of a material for a particular temperature difference. This means the ethylene glycol must remain longer in the engine and radiator, or there has to be a larger difference between the temperature in the upper and lower radiator hoses.

Now, we have already discovered the flow rate has to be 1.5 times that of straight water just to shift the equivalent amount of heat so the only remaining options are a larger radiator or a higher engine temperature –the very problem we were trying to cure.

The most efficient coolant for hot weather performance is straight water with a wetting agent such as Water Wetter, but even here there is a wrinkle. If the vehicle has air-conditioning, the stationary water in the heater core can reach freezing point and cause the core to rupture. Water with wetting agent and about 20% antifreeze is a good summer time compromise.

When higher ratios of ethylene glycol is added to prevent coolant freezing in very cold weather, the lower efficiency of the coolant is easily compensated by the low temperature of the air passing through the radiator so it does cause a problem.

 

[xctasy]

8) Thanks, L6



But very embaressed for being wrong.

 

[Danielson]

Hi One thing that has not been mentioned is your initial and maxium advance setting as well as you gas mixture. If these are out it can cause high temps.
I use a fairly unorthodox method that I got out of an LPG manual many years ago fo tuning but it works for me. You need a good digital tachometre and disconnect 4 of your 6 spark plugs, leave 2 egually opposed cylinders firing ie 2 and 5. Put some old plugs into the loose leads and take them to ground so as to damage you leads or dizzy cap. With the tachometre connected start the engine, the manual suggested tuning for wide open throttle (wot) but I prefer to go for around 3000rpm and keep it at that point by wedging the throttle linkage so it cannot move. Now you adjust your main gas feed for max rpm then adust your distributor advance or retard for max rpm, recheck main mixture and that's it. As you've placed a load on the motor by having 4 dead cylinders it simulates road driving. I have found for best economy to use an rpm that I would be on at around 100kph but for max power go to a higher rpm or wot.
Cheers Dan.