F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

[pmuller9]

If you want to make good power to 5000 rpm the head will need larger valves with some blending in the bowl area.
You can also do minor modifications around the valve guides in the bowl area.
SI Valves: 1.94" intake SEV-2533 and 1.60" exhaust SEV-3005.

Pull the stock rocker studs, drill and tap for 7/16" screw in studs.
I prefer to keep the rocker ratio at 1.6 so there is less pressure on the cam lobe for longevity sake.
What 1.7 ratio rockers do you have.

If you are going to use a CXRacing turbo then look at the 60mm compressor inducer size turbos.
I would also consider using a T4 instead of the T3 exhaust inlet turbine housing because of the exhaust volume of the 300.
If you were strictly looking for low end power then the T3 would be OK.
A .63 A/R Turbine housing will spool the turbo sooner

A more efficient turbo like a Borg Warner would need a 57mm compressor for the same job but they cost more.

What did you mean by "What’s a middle of the road piston rod?"

What are you going to use for an exhaust manifold for the turbo?

 

[Max_Effort]

The EFI head shrouds the intake valve in order to create swirl.
The flowbench shows restricted flow rates until the valve lifts above .350"
If you open up the chamber as shown on the right the mid lift flow picks up a lot.
The head shown below was installed on the block and the cylinder bore was scribed on the head surface.
Then the chamber walls around the spark was brought out to the scribe line.

[image]https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k6115t6fst229s/Unshrouded%20EFI%20chamber%202.jpg?raw=1[/image]

With the larger chambers you now have the option to install larger valves.
For low rpm work the Chevy 1.84"/1.60" valves are sufficient. They are 4.91" long versus 4.75" for the stock EFI valves.
The benefit of the longer Chevy valves is you are no longer restricted to (less than) .500" valve lift as with the stock EFI valves.
This way you can use a short duration cam and use the 1.73 ratio Scorpion roller rockers to get higher valve lift.

Porting can consist of just working the valve guide bosses in the bowl and cleaning up the ports.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=77808#p599298

Do you do all the chamber roughing by hand with carbide?

 

[motorsickle1130]

Thanks Pmuller, you’re a lifesaver.

Just got off the phone with Jobbers in Portland; they haven’t had a forged crank in a few years. He suggested scrounging in wrecking yards. :-/ oh well, I figured I’d have to anyway.

The kid at cxracing suggested a T4 T67 p-trim (?)w/ a .68 AR housing and 66.6 inducer and 84 exducer on the compressor wheel. Exhaust is 70.1 inducer, 61 exducer with a 3” vband outlet. Oil cooled only with dual ceramic ball bearings (?) and billet wheel for $540.
I’ll probably get fittings and an intercooler from them too.

I was thinking I’d build an exhaust manifold at some point, but for now will probably hunt for an HD motor to swipe crank and manifold from.

 

[motorsickle1130]

1.6 ratio makes more sense, longevity wise.

For rods I just meant something that’ll hold up to boost for longevity but not force me to take out a second mortgage.

 

[pmuller9]

The kid at cxracing isn't familiar with the low volumetric efficiency of the 300 six and probably used another 5.0 liter engine, possibly a V8 as a guide.
A 67mm compressor is too large and you may push it into surge if you try to make boost at a low rpm.

Here is what the 57mm looks like. See the load points on the map just off center to the right. A 60mm would center the load points nicely.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

Here is what the 66mm looks like. Notice how the load points are sitting to the left side of the map near the surge zone.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

Also most everyone here has been succesful getting a power band close to what you asked for using a 57 to 60 mm turbo.

I don't believe you need a forged crank.
If you want a new industrial crankshaft. We purchased one and and had it checked for trueness and it checked out great. It also appears to be cast steel.
https://www.ebay.com/p/4-9l-300-CID-For ... 1111270382

 

[motorsickle1130]

Awesome sauce!
Yeah I was thinking the same thing on the 66mm turbo. Thanks for the links.
I was starting to wonder on the necessity for forged, mostly out of not finding one and going with what’s available and easy.

I’ve seen you’re a big fan of borg Warner’s 200sx, and I’m thinking of possibly going with the bottom of the line unit (foregoing the fancy bearings), also for the sake of keeping it mostly American, but also a proven combination, with a compressor map no less!

As an aside; I was just reading through your conversation with the fella working on the bourke engine, and was able to mostly follow, but still felt kinda “special” (drooling smiley here). That’s some pretty incredible, yet moderately straight forward (physics and chemistry wise) tech.

 

[pmuller9]

Borg Warner is always on the leading edge for turbo design and quality.
Off shore turbos can be hit or miss as far as getting a good unit.
If you get a good one it will ussually last if it isn't pushed very hard.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread from the Bourke engine you will see that the OP wants work with a Ford 300 six to get an incredible amount of fuel mileage.

Do you have a motorcycle?

 

[pmuller9]

Stevens Parts carries new 300 HD exhaust manifolds from time to time. See about halfway down the page.
http://www.stevensparts.com/FORD%20EXHA ... tm#240-300

The least expensive off the shelf "H" beam connecting rods are the
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

 

[motorsickle1130]

Nope, 3 right now. I haven’t been riding much lately, but the only one that’s always ready to roll is my 06 Vrod. It’s needed a new clutch for about 5k miles, but only slips above 7krpm at WOT, which I hardly hit, so the new slipper clutch is still on my shelf. I’ll get to it between the dual bathroom remodel, first kid being born, and truck build.
Do you put your life in cagers hands too?

Yeah, I remember reading that hot rod article about the mid engine Frankenstein Yunick helped develop. Sounds like a great technology, but could go wrong fast. Probably not too much more complicated than a lot of the stuff already coming out of Detroit though, just substitute some old fashioned (solenoids, capacitors) for new fangled, and it’ll probably be more reliable, and just as economical.
Sounds like it’s on the back burner for him at the moment, but what an awesome hobby, if nothing else.

I’ve looked around on the turbo posts, but haven’t nailed down if there’s a decent grind cam out there for this application that’s not a custom grind.?
Also, what would you suggest for a decent, but not overly spendy piston rod?

Again, I really appreciate all the help and guidance. Not sure what I have to offer, but if you have (24v, 48v, 120/240, 277/480) electrical questions, I can probably help.

 

[pmuller9]

Nice bike!

My riding days were back in the 1970s and later.
My interest was drag racing on the street and track along with woods riding.
My last road bike was a 1977 Rickman Café chassis with a Supercharged 1000cc Kawasaki engine and my woods bike was a 1976 350 Bultaco Alpina.
I also built performance bike engines for others.

Stevens Parts carries new 300 HD exhaust manifolds from time to time. See about halfway down the page.
http://www.stevensparts.com/FORD%20EXHA ... tm#240-300

The least expensive off the shelf "H" beam connecting rods are the
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

The cam profile depends on what you end up doing for head work, the exhaust manifold and turbocharger.

 

[pmuller9]

Do you do all the chamber roughing by hand with carbide?

Yes
See post #11 thru post #15 in this thread
viewtopic.php?p=599338#p599338

 

[motorsickle1130]

Called up Stevens Parts in Texas this morning and they just happened to get a brand new batch of 300 HD exhaust manifolds in. $279 shipped, it’ll be here Friday.

Finishing up my material list for the motor, and tentatively planning on meeting the machinist this Thursday to go over the plan.

Also got a wild hair, and figured I’d check the bores. They’re all within .005” of 4”, probably closer to 4.003, so as long they’re no cracks, it’s a relatively virgin motor, and we can keep the bore to a minimum.

I’m also thinking about taking the truck to a mechanic outside town to get the steering dialed in the next few weeks.

 

[pmuller9]

What did you decide on for connecting rods and pistons?

 

[motorsickle1130]

Probably going with Keith Black Hyperautectic (?spelling?), but I’ll see what the machinist says. I have no clue on connecting rods, and will most likely defer to the machinist.
I’ve got most everything else figured roughly, but am taking all my notes with me today, and will see what he says.

I’m also thinking of going with the Comp 252H, though still not sure as the lift is a bit less than seems right for all this effort, but the price is right and will probably be easier an the valve train in the long run.?

 

[pmuller9]

Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

The compression ratio should to be in the lower 8s
Use the KB 3117H pistons on stock rods and zero deck the block.

Grind the forging lines off the rod beams, polish the beams and have the rods shot peened.
Resize with ARP bolts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9u6bhvzw0p5w ... 0.jpg?dl=0

 

[sdiesel]

there are no more forged cranks to be had anywhere.
jobbers only had them when evergreen aviation had a contract with the govt.
evergreen has been dead several years now.
and jobbers no longer does coreexchanges.
ur last hope is an airport tugger tractor with a 300.
but tearing one apart for the engine seems a shame.

 

[guhfluh]

Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

I may have asked before, but I do not understand Crower's calculations on their cam cards at all. Does this cam have any overlap at .050" tappet or not? The use of a minus symbol and using ATDC vs BTDC throws me off and doesn't ever add up to their claimed duration. Even with their cams that act like there is huge duration and overlap compared to others, they show similar card figures that are hard to believe.

 

[pmuller9]

Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

I may have asked before, but I do not understand Crower's calculations on their cam cards at all. Does this cam have any overlap at .050" tappet or not? The use of a minus symbol and using ATDC vs BTDC throws me off and doesn't ever add up to their claimed duration. Even with their cams that act like there is huge duration and overlap compared to others, they show similar card figures that are hard to believe.

To use the minus sign and also state ATDC for the intake or BTDC for the exhaust is like speaking with a double negative and can cause confusion.
However it is used to give you the correct duration if you use the timing points with the minus sign in place.

Example:
For the .050" intake duration. -5 +180 + 35 = 210*
Exhaust .050" duration -18 + 180 + 38 = 200*

When you calculate the lobe centers you always invert the signs if you are looking at the distance from TDC.
Intake lobe center 210*/2 + 5 = 110* ATDC
Exhaust lobe center 200*/2 + 18 = 118* BTDC

Lobe Separation Angle (110* + 118*)/2 = 114*

Overlap = (Intake duration + exhaust duration)/2 - (LSA x 2) = (210 + 200)/2 - (114 x 2) = 205 - 228 = - 23*
A negative number means there is no overlap. In this case there is no overlap by 23*

 

[motorsickle1130]

Sorry, been busy with the house and changing jobs. Tearing out half of my plumbing waste lines today, but couldn't sleep so I've got a few minutes. Waiting for the "home store" to open up so I can make one more (but probably not) parts run before ripping and tearing.

After talking with the machinist:

-He's not keen on using the KB pistons because they're cast; He's wanting to use Forged, which works for me, especially if we can re-use stock rods and just clean them up/shot peen.

-Gotta get a cam figured and he strongly suggested looking into a complete roller set up; which I'm not too keen on after seeing the prices. It did have me wondering if it'd be possible to steal roller lifters out of something else used for cheaper, but I'm not sure I want to invest that much time into modifications. Maybe for another build if I decide to go "Full Race" or return to N/A and attempt to keep some higher power numbers. Again, with my fairly modest goals, a mild (turbo) build will get us there.
I like Pmullers cam suggestion and it seems like it would still work well even if I loose boost for one reason or another.

-He asked me to look into stroking the 300 (though it's technically a stroked 240, if I understand most explanations), which again looks like a labor intensive and costly process for only 20-40cu in gained. Maybe cool for another build if I did most of the work/labor.

-I'm also supposed to be reading up on Quench, which has only been cursory at this point. I just need to make a little time for it, and find some more in depth explanations.

-He is absolutely opposed to using a High Volume oil pump, and instead wants to modify the stock (or rebuilt) pump to make it high pressure. He was concerned about possibly having too much oil leave the pan and end up with a (not the good kind) dry sump. I haven't given it much thought, but it's left me wondering about making a larger capacity pan out of the current one (which already has a few wrinkles in the bottom from laying in a junk yard), and going with the Melling high volume (25%ish over stock) and beefing up the internals for high pressure. I'm not entirely sure what to expect for oil usage from the turbo, and would rather have to restrict the incoming oil than not have enough.

 

[motorsickle1130]

This also has me wondering about distributors:

The one in the truck (429) is off the original 400, and looks like an early HEI unit that is still running an external coil, that's pretty sad looking.
I was thinking I would just go with a Pertronix Flamethrower II kit for the six, as it looked like the distributor still had points in it. I'll check that in a bit when I go out to the shop. The Holley fuel injection should be able to work with that.

I'm probably going to order the EFI equipment soon, and start retro fitting everything for the fuel system, which I could do fairly easily since it's dual tanks. Probably just switch to the rear tank, drop the front to do the in-tank pick up, and then rig the rear tank to feed the front so I don't need an additional fuel pump.
I'll probably install the fuel injection on the 429 for now as well. Might get 10 mpg if I'm lucky. :arg:

I'm going to try and address the steering and suspension issues soon too, and I've got and SAdesigns 4x4 book coming in the mail to help with my comprehension.