Falcon 200 w/Auto -- just keeps dying randomly

[Anonymous]

So, while I'm just driving along, my '68 Falcon (stock setup) will just die on me. For example, I'm riding on the freeway at 60 ish mph and I feel the engine starting to "cut out". It's not like it's misfiring or anything, it's just like it's turning completely off, then on. It'll usually start with a few cycles of doing this. Some of the "offs" are for maybe a half second to a second, then it'll kick back in.

If I just keep driving, eventually it'll die all the way and has to be restarted. However, if I put the car in neutral after this starts happening, the car will just die (oil light comes on). Sometimes it seems to kinda diesel a bit as it dies, but nevertheless it dies. I'm so used to it that if it starts its little "cut out" fit, I just put it in neutral and wait for it to die (which is almost immediately).

So what do I do? Turn the key and it starts up quick as a whistle. Put it back in Drive and off I go. I barely even lose 10 mph usually. Occasionally after it dies, it won't start back up immediately and I have to push the pedal to the floor and crank it for a second or two until it will start (i.e., kinda like it's flooded). In this scenario, I usually lose 20mph, so it gets kinda frustrating to the people behind me. 8)

When I'm on a city road going slow enough to not worry, I'll try to leave it in drive just to see what happens. The engine "dies" basically, but it's still running and turning over from the forward momentum of the car. The oil light doesn't come on, but the car just keeps getting slower and slower and the engine spins slower and slower. It never "turns off" if I just keep it in drive when it's dead. Kinda weird...

Alright, so now that I've described the problem, does anyone have any ideas what to check? I'm not going to say what I've already done because I want some creative, non-restrictive suggestions. Of course, in my opinion, I've done "everything I can think of", but that's beside the point.

I've been having this problem on and off for 6 or 7 years, and now I want to solve it! The expertise in this forum is extensive, so hopefully I can get some good ideas!

Thank you VERY MUCH in advance for ANY suggestions. I love my Falcon, but this problem is getting old. Oh yeah, I should say that this isn't an every day type of event. I've driven it for the past 5 months without any incident. Today, however, it did it probably 25 times on my way home from work. It just kinda comes and goes in waves.

Let me know if you have any questions that I can clarify about the situation. Thanks again!!

Hegg[/code]

 

[Anonymous]

I had a similar problem in my maverick, although it was a bit worse for me. It was a combination of a bad fuel pump and clogged tank pickup. It would start and idle fine, and drive fine sometimes, but then would randomly die. It would then start back up and die when put in gear. Check your fuel filter and then use a container on the end of the fuel hose to check if the fuel pump is putting out enough volume.

 

[Lazy JW]

I too suspect fuel delivery. Some vehicles have a screen type filter in the tank that can get clogged. Take the tank out of the car and clean it thoroughly. I had some rubber hose get into the fuel tank on my 68 Bug, I suspect that a previous owner used a substandard hose on the filler neck. Anyway, it would just cut out going down the road. If I would jam on the brakes it would sometimes move the debris around and then it would run fine for a while. I have never seen a car that old with a clean tank unless someone had just cleaned it.
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

Cool, thanks for the quick feedback! I personally suspect fuel as well and have done a few things. However, a fuel filter is easy to change, so it sure wouldn't hurt to put a new one on.

The fuel tank is "new" as of about 18 months ago. The previous tank had about ½ inch of rust in the bottom! Good thing I got rid of that. The fuel pump is also new from about 18 months ago, but testing it for volume output is a good idea.

Actually, I accidentally left the fuel line off the carb once and tried to start it. Gas shot out everywhere! Is there a chance that something internal to the fuel pump is intermittent? (diaphram or who knows what...)

Great suggestions! I really appreciate it. I think I'll go run and get a fuel filter right now!

Hegg

 

[MustangSix]

I had a 65 Falcon that did that. It turned out to be a loose wire. The pink ignition wire under the dash had an intermittent connection.

 

[mustang6]

I've had 3 different cars act like this over the years, two were fuel problems, one ignition.

The easiest one of the three to trace down was a problem where the engine began to loose power and then would die, always when under load for awhile, like going up a long hill. It would always start back up after a few cranks though. I suspected a dying fuel pump, but ultimately found a collapsing fuel hose between the tank and pump that didn't allow the pump to suck enough gas to keep up with longer term high fuel demands. In normal driving this didn't happen because under short term loads the fuel reservoir in the carb bowl covered the demand, and the pump would catch up later.

Next toughest was the ignition problem. My 68 Mustang had a 1974 vintage (one or two year only DS I or it's predecessor) Ford OEM electronic ignition transplanted into it. Anyway, it would die at random, usually restarting just fine with the key. The only pattern I could figure out was that it was more prone to do this when I drove it in the rain for extended periods (sounds electrical right there, huh?). Traced it to a wire shorting out right where it ran through the distributor housing. The grommet used in 1974 wasn't very robust, and a wire had worn through it and worn its insulation off against the aluminum housing on the underside of the wire where it was very difficult to see. Whenever it got damp, the short circuit was more likely. I suppose starting the motor after it died probably shook the wiring enough to break the short circuit most of the time.

The toughest one to trace was one that would die at random but always restart. I tested everything over and over, but it always checked out. I FINALLY traced it to a fuel problem of rust in the tank clogging the pickup screen. The sucking action from the pump combined with miscellaneous sloshing around while driving would apparently occasionally pick up enough rust to plug the screen-sock thing on the pickup tube. As soon as the engine died, the suction stopped, some of the rust fell off the screen back down into the tank, and it ran OK again for minutes, hours, days- totally random. Troubleshooting this was tough because you could never make it happen on purpose and since almost any testing you could do on the fuel delivery system was with the car sitting still, the fuel wouldn't slosh around enough to pick up the rust necessary to cause the problem. So how did I figure this one out? I eventually got so desperate I took the hood off the car, installed a clear glass fule filter in a position where I could see the fuel flow through it, and drove the car around for days until it did it again. Only then could I see that while driving it starved for fuel, but the instant the engine died and I tried to restart it, the fuel filter had gas flowing though it again.

The reason I mention this is because all that rust from the tank you replaced may still be clogging up something somewhere and it could be as elusive to find as my problem. Maybe the clear filter idea will help you, maybe there's a bunch of rust in the carb plugging up the jets occasionally, but I'd bet it's fuel/rust related.

 

[Anonymous]

I had the same thing happen to my truck. It tuurned out that the bran-spankin-new fuel filter on my carb was bad; and the carb bowl would slowly drain dry. Especially on the freeway. :x

 

[Anonymous]

If you had that much rust in the tank, theres a better than even chance some was left in the gas line.
If other ideas don't pan out check this line and clean.
FWIW DaveP

 

[Anonymous]

If you had that much rust in the tank, theres a better than even chance some was left in the gas line.
If other ideas don't pan out check this line and clean.
FWIW DaveP

Thats what I had to do when mine did the same thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Just an update after the weekend...

I'm personally convinced that it has to be electrical, not fuel. I took off my fuel line and put a glass jar up to it, then started it up to see how much fuel was being pumped (and to pump out any dirt/rust that might be in the line). Not only did the car run for awhile without the fuel line hooked up (20 seconds before I just shut it off), but it pumped at least a gallon to 1.5 gallons in the jar and all over the garage floor. Fuel delivery and pressure is definitely there.

Just to be sure, I replaced the fuel filter, took the lid off my carburetor and changed the needle valve and cleaned it up a bit. Same problem. So, suspecting electrical, I took the distributor cap off to inspect a little and to change the condensor.

I found two problems -- first it looks like the rotor was "too tall" somehow. There was mechanical damage inside the cap where the rotor had been hitting the edges. I compared the old rotor next to a new rotor and the old one was about 1 mm taller (amazingly enough -- musta got the wrong one). The second problem is that the incoming wire from the coil to the points/condensor was stripped! It must have got caught on *something* and ripped the insulation off the outside of the wire. That could have easily been shorting out on the sides of the distributor. So I repaired that while I was in there and also replaced the cap/rotor/condensor. Same problem.

I decided that I could see if it was electrical instead of fuel by hooking some LEDs up to my coil/group and stringing them inside the car. I have them taped to the dash right now so I can see 'em blink as I drive.

My drive this morning was nearly perfect -- it only happened once. And when it happened, the LEDs went out, just as I suspected. They would go on and off exactly in sync with when the engine was cutting out and coming back in.

Now I just want to clarify that this is is a legitimate test. In my thinking, if the problem is fuel related, I would still be getting spark to the engine if it was starving (at least for a few seconds until the engine died/stopped spinning). If I was still getting spark when the engine was starving, then the LEDs would be lit up. If they aren't lit up, then, in my opinion, I'm losing electrical immediately which, of course, causes the engine to stop. It seems like it must be an intermittent short or something since the engine will come "in and out" while it's happening. I can't explain why the engine starts up perfectly after it dies though -- unless the vibration of starting shakes things around (although I can't imagine that vibration is more intense than the car shaking at 75mph ).

Does that make sense? Everyone agree with that logic? I can't think of any reason that I would lose spark if it was simply running out of gas. Obviously once the engine died completely I would, but I should get spark for at least a few more seconds while the engine spins down from 4,000 rpms.

So if that's the case, what should I look at? Someone mentioned their ignition lead under the dash was shorted. I'll replace the coil today and see if that makes a difference. What about the voltage regulator thingy (not sure if that's what it's called -- the thing that the postive lead on the battery plugs into. Weird box looking thing with a dozen wires going in and out)? I guess it could be any wiring between the battery and the distributor technically. If it was too far back though, my headlights would flash in and out with the engine cutting out (as well as any other electrical inside, such as the radio).

Thanks again everyone for the feedback! Hope everyone else had a good weekend,

Hegg

 

[Anonymous]

Geez, sorry that was so long!

Hegg

 

[mustang6]

I think you've done a fine job of isolating it to be an electrical problem. You've essentially come up with a real-time ignition troubleshooting display much like I did with a clear fuel filter for the fuel system.

The inside of your distributor sounds like it was really messed up. Hopefully with a new cap, rotor, points and condenser you've straightened that part out but you should probably check for smooth operation of the distributor with a timing light and dwell gauge. Watch for smooth advancement and solid dwell across the RPM range. The coil can also be electrically tested using procedures in a shop manual, but often a swap is the only way to isolate an intermittent problem.

Good luck- you've obviously got good deductive skills.

 

[Lazy JW]

Sounds like you are well on your way to fixing it. Now you need to isolate the exact trouble spot. Since it appears to be electrical, you need to eliminate each portion of the circuit one at a time. I would temporarily bypass the entire ignition wiring circuit with a jumper wire from the battery to a toggle switch inside the car (for safety, you need to be able to shut it off) and from the toggle switch to the coil and see if that cures it. Then add one section of the ignition circuit back in at a time by moving the jumper wire from the battery to the hot side of the ignition switch, then the output side, etc.
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the additional feedback. The car still misbehaved yesterday on my way home (with the new ignition parts), so I picked up a new coil from AutoZone to put in last night and see how today goes. I test drove it last night after putting the coil in and it ran just fine, so hopefully that resolves it.

I didn't think about checking dwell -- I'll do that tonight if I get a chance. I also didn't change points over the weekend (but they still looked just fine).

Thanks again for everyone's help. Now, time to go get in and drive!

Hegg

 

[Anonymous]

get rid of those points

pertronix is much more stabil and relaible

 

[Anonymous]

get rid of those points

pertronix is much more stabil and relaible

What's pertronix? Where do I get it? How much is it?

 

[simon]

basically, the Pertronix Ignitor is a hall element pickup and magnetic reluctor to replace points and condenser on standard points-type distributors.

pertronix website

slade´s pertronix conversion

You should get pertronix ignitors through NAPA and autozone, NPD stocks it as well as JC Whitney. However, I don´t recommend JC Whitney anymore.

 

[Anonymous]

Cool, it sounds kinda nice. What are the disadvantages to going with Pertronix? Any idea on cost?

Thanks

Hegg

 

[Anonymous]

approx $59.95

i dont think anyone here will say there are disadvantages to pertronix I...there is a pertronix II...which some say is hard to set up and isnt relaible...

but pertronix I is the bomb. I havent adjusted a thing in over two years in my distributor...unike when I had points....

simple to install too!

 

[Lazy JW]

I would recommend curing the original problem first, then do the Petronix switch after your car is reliable. You really don't need anything extra to try to troubleshoot at this time. I have never used Pertronix, but I do believe it is a good product. The only thing it really accomplishes is to eliminate the continual maintenance of the points, which can be very desireable. Don't expect lots of extra power, it won't happen.
Joe