Fox body engine mounts.

[Anonymous]

Hey guys. It's been a while huh? I ended up sticking a 5.0 in my 84 LTD (midsize fox body) for now, since I had the parts, and my friend wouldn't let me use his garage if I was going to use the 200 I have hanging around. Things have changed, however, with the recent gas price insanity, and the fact that I can't afford to drive the car more than two or three evenings a week. It sure is nice having all that power, but wowee does it kill me at the pump.

So, what I'm wondering is whether anyone has made engine mounts to adapt an inline 6 to the V8 Fox body crossmember? I know it's doable, but I want to know HOW doable, y'know?

I actually had an inline 6 crossmember in a parts car I picked up this past winter, but I couldn't find anyone to haul the car away without the front suspension intact, and again, my sometimes pain in the ass friend got in the way...

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[48fordnut]

Having made 6 cyl cars into v/8 cars by cutting the fwd portion of the mt and using ford truck mts. i don't know of any way to do it other than changing the k member. not wanting to do that. you could always cut the v/8 mts off the k member and weld on the 6 cyl mts. thats the hard way. IMHO. jim

 

[Anonymous]

Well, yeah, I guess that would be the hard route. I have made engine mounts for "oddball" swaps in the past. The only problem with this one is just how different the mounting points are. The 200 mounting points are so much further forward and narrow compared to the v8 ones.

I suppose this is one of those time where I'll just have to mock the engine into place, and see how much it's going to take.

The fortunate thing is that I've got a bunch of 2 x 4 steel tubing, and some heavy plate lying about that I can also use as part of the mock up.

Keep the suggestions rolling though. Thanks!

 

[Anonymous]

mr,
Can you take pictures as you proceed? Verbal documentation?
I'm thinking about fabricating mounts as well but only have a rough idea of where I'm going.
Please don't be ashamed to document failures of ideas or fabrications.
You'll save some of us time and money.
I am very interested in how you proceed so please keep us all abreast of your trials and tribulations.
Much has been said here on these forums about the fabrication, but not much good analytical planning and implementation.
Looking forward to your essay on this.
Thanks.
DaveP

 

[Anonymous]

You betchh. It's going to be a little while before I get to it, however.

I took some rough measurements today, and I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Everyone keeps telling me that it'd be easier to get the L6 crossmember, but those things are getting to be about as rare as hen's teeth around here. Once in a blue moon, a Mustang or some other fox chassis vehicle will show up with the correct part, but pulling one of those out at the wreckers is a huge pain in the a$$.

The way I see it, create a flate plate to mount at the stock V8 spot, use 2" X 2" quarter wall tubing cut at an angle that puts the mount further inward and forward, and create a flat pad at the end of that. A few little gussets, and the thing is as good as can be.

When I get to working on it, I'll keep you informed.

Jim

 

[80broncoman]

If you end up buying one at a parts yard, if you have a choise try to look for the ones with both the I6 location holes ANd the other engines. If the vehicle is for sale later it could make a difference in the selling price.

 

[Stormin' Norman]

I've got a 78 Fairmont 200 with a C4 as a donor car and my 79 Fairmont wagon with a 302 and a C4. Mine had A/C and a 3 row Radiator. I'm changing to a Standard heating system, so that the 200 won't starve with power drains like the A/C.

The 200 was rebuilt about 20,000 miles ago with the Power By Ford (script letters, not squarish) stamped on the Valve Cover.

I noticed on the 78 donor that the mounts extend forward and there's a 1/2" hole at the back (top surface) that's unused. AND I noticed on the engine casting that there's an unused hole in the engine casting (above the pan, where the stock mount's bottom bolt could go.

Then I found a site that shows Bell Housing depth (length) differences for C4's. Back in my teenage hotrodder days, there we lots of V-8's with single bolt mounts. OK they were at an angle and the engine weight helped keep them down, but the 8's had more torque.

My 200 has a short bell housing, my 302 seems to have a deep one.
My 200 almost touches the firewall (1.5"), my 302 is about 4" to 5" from it.

The Tranny mount has some slotted mount holes and for the difference, my guess is that it could be a drop-in.

It's -5 here today and I've got both cars almost prepped to pull the engines. If I'm lucky and not too numb, I'll get the 200 into the V8 bay and advise.

Since the Wagon has beefier suspension on the front end, I don't think it'll affect the steering much. Had I stayed with the AC, then that extra 100 lbs might have made it dicey.

I also found a few places on the 'net to build your own custom mounts, one for a Bronco, another for a '36 Caddy. Liquid urethane for the Bronco and 1/2" thick Neoprene for the Caddy (monster engine). If I'm stuck, I may just make a forward Mount Extension. This K-Member stuff seems too far out, unless you're racing.

Having done a few Hemis and 440s, I'm pretty sure the 200 will stay put. If you go back to 1968, GM had a major recall for their 307 V8. Rather than change the mounts, GM installed a loop of Steel Rope (3/16" diam) to engine and frame bolt locations to prevent the engine from torquing its way up into the hood. I'll do that to secure the original mount holes back to the cross member. It's too damn cold to be walking for groceries, and tinkering with K-Member tweaks.

I know its probably a good idea, but the Farmers around town drive 1/2" tons they've played with and changed motors in for decades, and they all tell me my 200 should go into the V8 slot naturally.

I think they're a bit off, but making a custom mount seems better than chopping up a crossmember.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a mount from other models to swap down to a six?

 

[Stormin' Norman]

I may have misled/confused my description. The Frame (K-Member mounts extend forward, not the engine mounts themselves. The unused hole is also on the K-member's engine mount platform.

A friend that lent me his 2-ton engine lift, told me that when he works on a mechanical repair in the cold weather, he buys a bunck of surgical gloves. The rubber gives you the 'feel' ability and keeps body warmth longer. I never thought about it before, but if it works for doctors, it should work for Mechanics.

They're predicting -18C tonight. But its sunny and no wind.

 

[Anlushac11]

Are the K-members the same?

It was my understanding the I6 K-members were suppsoed to be deeper.

Also my Fox Body K-member motor brackets extend well forward of the V8 mounts.

 

[80broncoman]

Are the K-members the same?

No, I have seen two typesof K-members. I have never seen a I6 K-member without the other holes for the V8s and I4s

It was my understanding the I6 K-members were suppsoed to be deeper.

Also my Fox Body K-member motor brackets extend well forward of the V8 mounts.

It sounds like you have one of the rarer versions that has V8,I4 and I6 mount locations.

 

[xctasy]

I've got photos somewhere of Fox I6 and Fox I4/V6/V8 K members, but I can't trace them quickly. Someone here posted them from ebay.

The two types of Fox k-members are totally different. Its unlikely you'd ever be able to modify the I4/V6/V8 K mount itself to become like the I6 one without adding a special intermediate adaptor.


You have to look at past precedent.

They key is make an intermediate adaptor. Ford 'sort' of did this with the the 240/300. Same crossmember, different motor mounts. The motor mount became the link between the existing frame mounts and the engine.


On all Pontiac 350/389/400/421/428/455 and Olds 403's, there were 2 , 3 or even 5 tranfer lugs on each side of the engine, and you could easily move the engine mounts back or fowards to suit the chassis.

The LATER 200 I6 has 5 transfer lugs per side, so you could link the stock I4/V6 or V8 mounts to the six with just some 3/16" flitch plate about 1.5" deap and perhaps 20 inches long, with nuts welded into them so you can mount the other Fox engine mounts to the I6 block. In essence, your just creating a fake I4, Cologne or Essex V6, or Windsor V8 block arrangement on the side of your I6. That way, the I6 can be positions where ever in the chassis, and all you have to do is weld the bottom of the I4, V6 or V8 sump to the I6 sump. And change the oil pickup to suit.

This suggestion was made about 18 months ago when some people were looking at low mount 250 engines and such like.

To me, you guys need to examine the 72- 77 three lug 350/400/403/455 motor mount adaptors, and let your mind solve the equation itself.

Dumping an I6 without a sump into a Fox V8 is the first port of call. Postion it where the six would normally go, and make up two strong 3/16" by 1.5" by 20" steel plate, and see how the Windsor V8 mounts could then be fitted to the flitch plates on the side.

 

[Stormin' Norman]

Thanks XCTASY! This guy has done the opposite - installing a V8 into an Inline 6 car, but the picture shows that he cut the K-Member right out and replaced it with a supplier-built unit.

http://www.geocities.com/stymeesmont/Photospg3.html

Mine is a V8 car, just to reaffirm.

The same fellow has photos of different Ford Engine mounts for V8's, here: http://www.geocities.com/stymeesmont/Infoandtech.html

My 302 car has what he lists as exhibit "A". He doesn't show the 200 ci. mounts, but they have 2 up-down bolts to the engine and the big one to the K-Member.

My 200 ci has the HUMPED pan to go over the K-Member/Steering hardware.

As you say, and I understand, the trick is to make an extension forward from the V8 K-member mounting pad to recieve the 200 ci motor mount, and bolt it to the V8 K-member.

That's generally what I plan to do. But I'm going to try to cut the 200 ci car's K-member mounting pad as close to the K-member as I can, and see if I can adapt it, on top of the V8 K-member pad. I can bolt it temporarily, install the motor and drive it to a welding shop to finish the job. It's -22C today and we'll warm up to a balmy -13C. 4 to 5 inches of snow on its way Sunday to Wednesday. So alacrity is the keyword, work 20 minutes, thaw out 15, work 20 more, and rethaw! )

We're tough here! The City is like a small town.

OK, the 1.5 X 20" flitch plate would be the alternate way, if the old pad idea doesn't work right?

As I said earlier, I think my C4 bellhousing (V8) is deeper than the 200 ci C4 bellhousing. Might help 'bring back' the 200 in the V8 bay. According to the Haynes pictures, the tranny mounts have some sliding room in the slots (forward/backward).

Am I missing anything?

On a seperate item, I was planning on replacing my AC underdash heater plenum with the old standard one. I'll take out the old standard one for future use, but when I saw it, I realized that my AC plenum and vacuum plumbing is far simpler to fix, and seems to be formed to avoid the rust issues that others have noticed and fixed on their cars.

I'll just take out the Air Dryer core and pack the hole system in oil-cloth, after oiling.

My car has a body that is in better condition than most 3-year old cars here. We use a lot of road-salt for snow and ice. In Mexico, they over-undercoat to compensate for the 50C plus weather and the many rain-storms. I was surprised to see the 'Donor' car's floors and trunk! The tire well is the only thing holding the backend together! and the front floor is split on the car length! I know that Ocean-side cars rust out pretty fast too, but mine came from an inland city, Guadalajara, MX. Whew!

So back to the mounts, please clobber me with the errors of my ways, or am I on the right track? eh? eh? eh?

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

Seems like it would be much easier to find a Fox body I6 K-member.

But they may get rare because I have been told they are popular because they are easy to modify to mount a 4.6L mod motor in a Fox body. I have had two guys offer to buy mine out of my 80Stang

 

[Stormin' Norman]

I just went out and measured the 6-cylinder K-Member pad from the firewall. The first hole is 13.75", the 6-cylinder mount has two bolts into the pad on the K-member: First hole at 16.25", second hole at 20.0".

As I mentioned earlier, my V-eight is away from the Firewall by: 2.75" (not my original 4 or 5" - just measured) and the 6-cyl is 1.25". So the engine will move back by 1.5" at least thanks to the bellhousing difference. So now, my rearmost 6-cyl mounting bolt sits squarely on the V-eight K-pad. It looks like I only need a small 2" extension on the V-eight K-pad to bolt down the 6-cyl motor mount.

If that's so, then the Steering extension isn't required either. The last variable is the driveshaft, and since I have both (my car and donor car), I should be fine.

I may even be saved the extension (although I doubt it), if the engine mount (front hole can be slotted a bit or narrow the mount flanges to sit on the V-eight pad.

I looked at both K-members, and it would be a snap to cut off the 6-cyl pad and bolt to the V-eight pad.

This just isn't the kind of weather to have to do this work in. It's bleedin' COLD. -14C with windchill right now. 5 minutes work and thaw for 15 minutes! Brrrr!

 

[Stormin' Norman]

I found a great picture link for talking points: These are exactly the scenario. My 8 is like the RED one, the 6-donor seems identical to my 78 donor car. It may be the picture angle, but his seems to have an angle at the rear of the mounting pads.

http://www.forgottenfox1.50megs.com/kframe.html

What's great about this photo is that it shows that the K-member can be swapped without cutting the hell out of the car. I thought it was welded to the frame structure - never checked. Mea Culpa.

Well for all the rust on the Donor 78, this part has remained intact, so maybe I'll do that instead. It sure looks simpler.

 

[addo]

That's what I referred to in your thread posted about a week back. I believe the engine/trans was offered up from below, already affixed to the member.

 

[Stormin' Norman]

It's a bit like the joke about a mother writing to her son: "My dear son, I'm writing slow, because I know you don't read to fast."

I missed that ADDO, thanks for pointing it out, again. Maybe I should change my online handle to 'Skip reader'?

 

[Stormin' Norman]

I got a great tip on the K-member swap.

1. Engines and trannies are both out, now. (It's around 20 F (-5C) and an inch more of snow tonight.

2. Lift front end at radiator cowl frame with engine lift and block up where tranny mount was.

3. Remove tires, loosen off disc brake calipers and hang them off the engine compartment holes with bungie cords. (saves bleeding them)

4. Disassemble the top of the shock towers.

5. Remove ALL K-Member mounting bolts from below car (yuk!) and roll it out from the car.

6. Repeat on recipient car.

7. Install donor k-member in recipient car. Install my discs (just done in August) and calipers.

8. Get my Bosch Sawz-all and chop the donor car (Real rust bucket) and load what's left into my utility trailer for scrap. I need the room in yard to shovel away the snow (another 4 inches coming this weekend)

I've seen rust-eaten cars before, but this one has no driver's floor, the whole trunk floor on the muffler side is gone, and the entire perimeter of the floor pan is a screen door!

I'll get new #8 bolts for the k-member remount.

My car is too nice to jimmy-rig the mounts, so this seems a better way to go. I'll get the donor out tomorrow and update.

 

[Stormin' Norman]

Oops! Forgot one step!

3.1 Remove Stabilizer bar. Not critical, but I don't have to raise the car up as high!

I'm dragging my feet thanks to the forecast, freezing rain later and windchill is around 10 F (-11C), but I'm getting my nerve up, my woolies on and OUT I GO!

 

[Stormin' Norman]

It's out! I only broke 2 of the long bolts and one of the short ones. I don't have a torch to cut with, just to braise thin stuff, so I was glad the bolts were really bad and broke off. Ye Old Ratchet extension handle (3 foot pipe) is a great persuader (after gobs of WD-40).

The guy said he had a lot of work done to it! New disc rotors, new struts, new calipers. Good thing I did this.

I'll tackle my car tomorrow if the freezing rain stops! Otherwise, its parts cleanup weekend.