Help me find out more about the motor I just bought

[Eric Rose]

So I just bought a used motor for my '62. It is out of a '78 Futura.

It has a different crankshaft pulley than my '70 motor because the new motor had an a/c compressor and a p/s pump mounted on it.

The cool thing is that when I got it they left most of the brackets and stuff for the p/s and a/c on the motor. So I guess I can add those later if I want them on my '62.

Will I be able to change the 3 groove balancer out for the single groove balancer on my current motor?

Also, the carb on the new motor is a lot different than my YF because the new carb comes with a ton of smog stuff. Is it safe to assume I can just toss all that stuff in the recycling bin and mount the YF and non-EGR exhaust manifold from my current motor?

Is the 78 motor low compression like nearly every other '70's motor out there? I am assuming that the block etc. are the same as any other 200 and if they lowered compression it was done by increasing chamber size, correct or no?

Anyhow, I will be looking at it this weekend and I will post more info when I have it.

 

[CobraSix]

So I just bought a used motor for my '62. It is out of a '78 Futura.

It has a different crankshaft pulley than my '70 motor because the new motor had an a/c compressor and a p/s pump mounted on it.

The cool thing is that when I got it they left most of the brackets and stuff for the p/s and a/c on the motor. So I guess I can add those later if I want them on my '62.

Will I be able to change the 3 groove balancer out for the single groove balancer on my current motor?

I was wrong...see post below.

Also, the carb on the new motor is a lot different than my YF because the new carb comes with a ton of smog stuff. Is it safe to assume I can just toss all that stuff in the recycling bin and mount the YF and non-EGR exhaust manifold from my current motor?

Yes...so long as you use a distributor that matches your Carb as well (SCV versus non SCV). Not sure if your old engine is a 170 or 200. I can't remember if the 170 dizzys work with a 200.

Is the 78 motor low compression like nearly every other '70's motor out there? I am assuming that the block etc. are the same as any other 200 and if they lowered compression it was done by increasing chamber size, correct or no?

According to my notes, it will be lower then the 170 CR. Usually larger chamber size. Some had dished pistons if I recall correctly.

Anyhow, I will be looking at it this weekend and I will post more info when I have it.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Eric:

If you don't mind I'll restate your questions so I don't miss anything.

Q- Will I be able to change the 3 groove balancer out for the single groove balancer on my current motor?
A- The later engines used a longer waterpump shaft so all the pulleys are set forward for more room for accessories. Take a close look at the pulley. Some engines have the front pulley bolted to the damper pulley. It can easily be unbolted. Swapping to your earlier pulley may cause belt misalignment. The '78 & later 2 & 3 groove pulleys are favored because they are heavier, larger diameter at 6 1/8", and are attached with 4 attaching bolts. '63 to 77 measure 5 7/8" and use 3 bolts for attachment.
Being your engine is from a '78 it could have either type.

Q- the carb on the new motor is a lot different than my YF because the new carb comes with a ton of smog stuff. Is it safe to assume I can just toss all that stuff in the recycling bin and mount the YF and non-EGR exhaust manifold from my current motor?
A- Yes. Generally this is a good upgrade. Interesting that you have to go back to upgrade this carb. The '78 climatic air cleaner system on the donor vehicle is one of the best.
Keep the ignition system on the '78 though. I hope you got the ignition module from the inner fender of the donor. The system is the big cap distributor, spark plug cables, module, coil and harness.
Add a 2" exhaust system to your non-EGR exhaust manifold and you've got it.

Q- Is the 78 motor low compression like nearly every other '70's motor out there? I am assuming that the block etc. are the same as any other 200 and if they lowered compression it was done by increasing chamber size, correct or no?
A- Yes, you are correct. The '78 was rated at 8:1. Not worth opening it if the engine is running good, but when it's time for a valve job you will have an opportunity it increase CR and improve efficiency without alot of additional expenses.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
[/i]

 

[LaGrasta]

Sounds like you really scored with a lot of potential when all is said and done. Nice job.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

that low compression is great for a turbo motor!!!

 

[Eric Rose]

that low compression is great for a turbo motor!!!

I wish I had the funds to go turbo, that'd be pretty sweet.

Just at a quick glance it does have the longer water pump. Will the longer water pump work with my stock Falcon 6cyl. radiator? I can wire up an electric fan if need be, I guess.

I'm not thrilled by the 8:1 compression ratio. But I should be able to re-surface the head easily enough. I plan on running plain old 87 octane pump gas so I need to have a compression ratio that will allow me to do that. Is 10:1 out of the question?

I read something about having to compensate for gasket thickness when using a new head gasket as the original gaskets were steel shim and thinner than the replacement gaskets. Is there a way to tell if the headgasket on the motor is OEM original when I take it apart? I have never seen a steel shim headgasket before, but I am assuming it will just be a thin piece of steel with no fiber on it like modern gaskets. Is this right?

I had DSII and the YF on my old motor, so I have everything installed and ready for that.

I was talking with my dad and he's recommending a full rebuild. I've never rebuilt an engine before, I've always been able to patch them together without rebuilding them. Is there anything specific I should have done to a Ford Six engine while it's at the machine shop other than standard fare?

When I go home this weekend I will get as much info for you guys as I can. The engine is at my parents' place 100 miles away so I'm limited to the weekends to work on it. And every weekend something seems to come up. Snow, tornadoes, etc etc

Anybody know of a good machine shop within 20 miles of Cartersville, GA (30120)?

And if anyone wants the EGR exhaust manifold, I'll sell it cheap

 

[JackFish]

I was talking with my dad and he's recommending a full rebuild. I've never rebuilt an engine before, I've always been able to patch them together without rebuilding them. Is there anything specific I should have done to a Ford Six engine while it's at the machine shop other than standard fare?

Depends on what you mean by "standard fare".
I took the Falcon Performance Handbook and highlighted everything relevant to my build in bright orange! Then I gave it to my machinist. They did a fantastic job, and I didn't have to explain myself, and they actually got interested in doing something that was a bit unique for them. Rather than having to defend my intentions with my motor, I let the experience of others speak for me.

 

[Eric Rose]

Depends on what you mean by "standard fare".
:

I was thinking of doing the following:

Hot tank everything

magnafluxing head (and maybe block too?)

check clearance of valve guides

valve job (3 angle or 5?)

resurfacing cylinder head

cleaning all threaded holes in block with a tap

bore/hone cylinders for oversize pistons (should I go as big as possible? )

line hone the mains

check rods for trueness

cut crankshaft journals undersize

balance crankshaft

new cam bearings


Anything else I should consider? Here are some things I have on my mind...

1.) using new bronze guides and cutting them for modern style stem seals

2.) bigger valves if I can get a good price on them

3.) exhaust port divider? does it have to be welded in or not?

4.) double roller timing chain/mild cam upgrade

Are the 200 and 250 cams different? Is there any benefit to adding a stock 250 cam into a 200? Because I have a 250 cam I can add in.

 

[Bort62]

I did my whole turbo install for less than a DUI and a set of headers!

 

[Eric Rose]

I did my whole turbo install for less than a DUI and a set of headers!

Do you have a build thread for your turbo install? What are you using for a carb? I have seen a couple of sixes on here sporting old Paxon superchargers that look to be of Studebaker origin ... I'd love something like that but I'm a broke college kid

I am thinking that this motor will eventually see one of the new aluminum heads, somewhere down the line (probably several years from now). So I might go with just the basics on the log head.

This car will be my daily driver, so reliability/longevity is really important.

The rest of the configuration in the car is a C4 auto and the 8 bolt (7.5"?) rear end with 3.10 gears. Brakes are stock drum all around. I've added an alternator in place of the old generator and completely replaced the wiring harness.

 

[Bort62]

If you want to DD it, then forget turbo.

 

[MustangSix]

I've never done it, but I always thought that if you took a small turbo like one of the T3's from a 2.3 turbo coupe and used it as a low boost blow thru, maybe no more than 4-6 psi, you could have a very responsive, low-cost way to make 50-75 more horsepower on a daily driver. No intercooler, boost referenced stock fuel pump, stock carb, dual vac distributor. Keep it simple and don't turn up the boost.

It's definitely not a "kit" and would take some custom welding and fabrication, but on a difficulty scale of 0-10, I'd rate it as no more than a 6 or 7. Ian has done it as have others, but some of them were after a lot of power. If you kept the boost low, it would make a big difference and not be unreliable at all.

The "broke college kid" part of the whole equation is the toughest part to overcome, I'm afraid.

 

[Eric Rose]

I am pretty good at turning up parts, so getting the T-3 from a turbo T-bird (or one of the Mopar turbos because those used T-3's too I think) shouldn't be too hard. Our local Pull-a-Part sells used turbos for $40

But really I want a reliable DD that will be mostly a highway cruiser. My stock brakes and the C4 are in great shape. I will put on a dual reservoir master cylinder and plumb new lines for the brakes sometime soon.

I will try and get some pics of everything this weekend when we tear it all apart.

How much can you resurface a head and still use the stock headbolts? Can the stock headbolts be re-used or are they torque to yield?

 

[Bort62]

It's not so much the reliability of the motor after adding boost as it is all the stupid little parts you have to add to make it work right.

Doing a turbo cheap != reliable most of the time.

Altho, mine has been pretty good so far. Hasn't left me stranded yet.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back Eric and All:

First of all, let me say that a 200 with a C4 in a '62 Falcon will make a great daily driver. Good power, light weight, good mileage, reliable. Miles of Smiles!!

Now to your questions. First do some more homework by checking out the stickies at the top of this forum. They are "Frequently asked questions" with good, complete answeres and discriptions.

Q- a quick glance it does have the longer water pump. Will the longer water pump work with my stock Falcon 6cyl. radiator? I can wire up an electric fan if need be, I guess.
A- it can, but you will have to do all you can to set the engine as far back and down as possible by slotting the motor mount bolt holes. If not, convert to an early pump and pulleys. I'd opt for an electric fan and keep the later pump and pulleys.

Q- I'm not thrilled by the 8:1 compression ratio. But I should be able to re-surface the head easily enough. I plan on running plain old 87 octane pump gas so I need to have a compression ratio that will allow me to do that. Is 10:1 out of the question?
A- You can safely surface a stock head up to about .090". Beyond that we reccommend sonic testing to avoid thin spots. There is a sticky above about heads, Gaskets and CR. All you will need to know is in there. 10:1 is possible on a dialy driver if- you live in a cool climate at or above 5,000 ft elevation, you plan to use a longer then stock duration cam to bleed off some cylinder pressure, you do alot of smoothing and radiusing in the combustion chambers to avoid hot spots and you deck the block to zero to maintain quench effect. Tune for a slightly rich A/F ratio, set initial advance conservatively and plan on 93 octane on those hot summer days in stop-and-go traffic. Believe me, you'd be just as happy with a 9.2 or so ratio.

Q- I read about having to compensate for gasket thickness when using a new head gasket as the original gaskets were steel shim and thinner than the replacement gaskets. Is there a way to tell if the headgasket on the motor is OEM original when I take it apart? I have never seen a steel shim headgasket before, but I am assuming it will just be a thin piece of steel with no fiber on it like modern gaskets. Is this right?
A- Yes, that is correct. Again, the complete answer is in the sticky. but in a nutshell the shim type measure .025" while the new gaskets measure about .050". So a mill of .025" will compensate for the gasket difference, and an additional cut of about .050" will get the chamber volumes back to about 9:1. IF you followed that you are looking for a cut of .075". Be sure to use hardened washers on the head bolts on reassembly to avoid bottom out the bolts in their holes. Stock head bolts can safely be reused on a daily driver.

If you do go for a complete rebuild, in addition to what you've already listed- Deck the block to zero. Stock you'll find the pistons down in the bores about .025". By decking the block to zero you will regain quench efficiency, promoting faster combustion, and reduce the likelyhood of knock. Decking will reduce how much you will need to mill the head also.

1.) using new bronze guides and cutting them for modern style stem seals.
A- Not necessary on a daily driver. The stock type umbrella seals will work fine and last a long time.

2.) bigger valves if I can get a good price on them.
A- Your '78 200 will have 1.75" intakes. You might want to add a back cut to them. Your stock exhaust valves are 1.38" and are fine for a daily driver. Classic Inline carries 1.5" replacement exhaust valves. Any advantage from them in a daily driver will be slight. Your choice. I'd go for the larger exhaust valves before I'd spring for a header exhaust though. Your daily driver will rarely see rpms above 4,000. Plan for best package below that.

3.) exhaust port divider? does it have to be welded in or not?
A- My answer is "yes!!!" With all care to hand fit it for a snug fit. Weld as per the instructions while the head is apart. It is easiest to do while the head is apart. Then if you ever feel the need for headers, you're ready to go.

4.) double roller timing chain/mild cam upgrade
A- the double roller cam chain is cheap insurance and worth it. A mild cam of about 260 degrees of duration and .400" lift with good vacuum for the C4 will be a good move. Talk with Mike at CI for specifics on lobe centers. Though mild, this cam will open up the mid range and allow a little more CR without worrying about knock.

Q- Are the 200 and 250 cams different? Is there any benefit to adding a stock 250 cam into a 200? Because I have a 250 cam I can add in.
A- A 250 cam will be better then a '78 200 cam, because FoMoCO messed with advancing the cam timing in grinding the cam, not changing the cam timing gears. A 250 cam of any year will be the same in duration and lift, but have a more straight up profile. If you've got it, go ahead and use it. But know that it will not give you anywhere near the performance upgrade that a mild 260 aftermarket cam will give.

Boy, I do go on! What do you think?

Adios, David

 

[addo]

I think that line boring the block will add grief, as it would then need a "line bore" set of shells for the mains - where would they be found?

Also, I vote for positive deck, with a piston protrusion of 10-15 thou. It means less off the head.

Bore to minimum oversize necessary, and torque plate hone. Here's a good visual depiction of what bolt tension does to cylinder walls:

Source: http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/bro ... 02_WEB.pdf (An interesting browse, if you're technically minded.)

 

[woodbutcher]

Hi Addo.Every engine that I was personally associated with that was line bored used the standard main bearings.Line boring,at least in the US simply returns the mains to standard size OD,and then you use whatever
UNDERSIZE on the main bearing surface.
Leo

 

[falcon60]

That's true. Common practice is to cut .005"-.010" from the mating surfaces of the caps only (not the block) then reinstall them and set the boring bar to just scratch the top of the bore in the block while taking material from the caps thus bringing the bores back to size. Yes,sometimes the bores are a thou large at the parting lines but vertically they are in spec and the loaded side (cap half) is totally "cleaned up".
If the block has been damaged by a spun bearing a mild case can be effectively repaired by boring slightly more out of the block side (set the tool to shift the hole upward) but the timing chain will run a bit looser if you go very far. In these cases if the block is rare and worth the expense we fit a half-sleeve and pin it in the block prior to boring. ($$$$)
Every time I have measured a small Ford six the main bearing bores have been in spec and in line though,so I doubt it will need to be done.

Terry

 

[Eric Rose]

Thanks for all the responses guys

Dad and I disassembled the engine the other day. It is clean and the parts don't look worn at all. We are thinking of just hot tanking everything, honing the cylinders and doing a valve job/resurface on the head and reassembling with new rings/bearings/gaskets.

One thing I am worried about is one of the pistons has a slight place that feels out-of-round. Dad says I can just sand that place down with some really fine sandpaper and it will probably be OK.

The headgasket was replaced with a FelPro composite headgasket, so perhaps the head was resurfaced to compensate. I might have the shop I take the head to measure the chambers. What chamber volume would give me 9:1?

I guess part of the final CR would depend on gasket crush thickness, so what gasket do you guys recommend? The Corteco gaskets look nice but they are much more expensive than the Fel-Pro gaskets.

I'm also thinking of using the EGR-style exhaust manifold with brass plugs in the EGR holes. The EGR manifold appears to be much more free-flowing than my early style manifold. The EGR manifold takes a doughnut gasket instead of the flat gasket, so we will have to weld on the doughnut style flange.

It is looking like the early style "short" water pump will fit the block. The crank balancers are different though. The one that came with the motor has 4 holes and 2 pulley grooves. The early style that I have just has one pulley groove and 3 bolt holes. The "long" water pump will not fit with my radiator at all, so I'd really like to use the short one if possible.

When we took the motor apart, 6 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke off in the head. So I spent all day Saturday drilling out the broken bolts and all day Sunday drilling out the broken bits from Saturday.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back:

Q-"Dad says I can just sand that place down with some really fine sandpaper and it will probably be OK."
A- As always, listen to your Dad!! It will not be a perfect fix, but short of a rebuild it will work, sort of. Look at the matching cylinder bore for signs of tightness and scoring, or heat damage there too. If honing can clean it up, you should be all right.

Q- "The headgasket was replaced with a FelPro composite headgasket, so perhaps the head was resurfaced to compensate. I might have the shop I take the head to measure the chambers. What chamber volume would give me 9:1?"
A- Your new heads stock volume was aproximately 62 ccs. A stock 9:1, early heads chamber volumes was about 52 ccs. I'll run some numbers on the Cr Calculator on our website and get back to you. OR, you could. It's easy and fun!! Click on my signature and chose "Compression Calculator" on the left. You can change the entries, then click on "compute" then scroll down for an answer.

Q- "The headgasket was replaced with a FelPro composite headgasket, so perhaps the head was resurfaced to compensate.
A- Your choices are Felpro at .050", Victor at .045". They are most easily available and give a good seal. I don't know the current specs on Corteco. I know Mike was working with them on a better thickness for us.

On the water pump and pulleys, I think you're stuck with the late style long pump because of the 3/4 bolt damper retain on the front of the crank. I don't think the dampers are interchangeable without changing the crank. As I mentioned before, set the engine as far back as possible, and look at moving the radiator forward an inch or so.

And, When doing the valve job, be sure to specify, at least a three angle seat, and back-cut the intakes. Don't for get to use hardened washers on the head bolts on reassembly.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David