Help me find out more about the motor I just bought

Do the newer crankshafts use a larger bolt? Perhaps a sleeve of some sort could be fitted? Or I could machine my early style balancer to fit?

I tried fitting the long style water pump and the current radiator on the Falcon and theres no way it'd work... the fan would be right in the middle fo where the radiator is now so I'd have to move the engine back a lot.

How would I move the radiator back? Sounds like that would require a lot of cutting/welding which is something I'm not really equipped to do. :(
 
CZLN6":3bn86gt8 said:
Deck the block to zero. Stock you'll find the pistons down in the bores about .025". By decking the block to zero you will regain quench efficiency, promoting faster combustion, and reduce the likelyhood of knock. Decking will reduce how much you will need to mill the head also.

Can you explain this in a little more detail? I would think that if the pistons sat down in the block a little bit that area would just be part of the combustion chamber. So how does it make a difference to cut the block instead of the head?

Dad is loaning me the money for this rebuild, so I will probably be going a little more conservative than I'd like to with it. I called the machine shop today and got prices for

hot tanking the head
testing guides
magnaflux / dye penetrant test
valve job (forgot to ask about angles and back-cutting :x )
resurface (still need to ask if they use a flycutter or a belt sander :lol: )

The above work will cost me $120. Tanking the rest of the motor will cost me $65... sounds too good to be true on the head work so I will have to ask more questions.

Will they need to assemble or test anything to zero-deck the block? Because everything is dissassembled now, and they told me to dissasemble the motor before they could tank it anyway.
. :lol:
 
If you mill the head only you decrease the size of the 'bowl' in the head. And the combustion chamber looks more like a cylinder with a "bump on it's head" The combustion has to fill that whole cylindrical area. Where as if you have a big bump and a smaller cylinder you actually concentrate the 'explosion' into a smaller area.

You need to have the rotating assembly put together in the block with new bearings in order to measure how much you need to cut off the top of the block (deck the block).

Also if the block is decked you don't have to mill as much any future head, should the need for a new head become necessary or desired.

-ron
 
Howdy:

In addition to what Ron has said, the reasons I prefer zero decking is that it helps to restore a more effective quench, which promotes a faster, cleaner burn. Quench is the squeeze area between the flat part of the head surface and the flat, no dish top of the piston. As the piston comes up to top dead center the fuel charge is squeezed out of this area and pushed, at high velocity, into the chamber and the piston dish. An ideal quench height is about .035", but with a deck height of .025", typical on a stock 200, and a compressed gasket thickness of .045" to .050" one has to deal with a very lazy .075" deck clearance- Not Ideal!!!.

With aftermarket head gaskets at .045" (Victor) to .050" (Felpro) you still can't achieve the ideal unless you deck the block past zero for positive deck measure, as Adam suggested. I don't recommend this for long term street engines as it can have a negative effect on ring life.

By decking the block to zero, quench becomes equal to the compressed thickness of the head gasket.

To accurately measure for deck height, you must pre-assemble with machining done, new bearings and pistons in place. Typically replacement stock type pistons will be down in the bores another .005". Many just measure deck height on disassembly, measure and compare the new pistons, and guess on the amount that needs to be removed from the top of the block.

Another reason for decking the top of the block is to provide a flat and true mating surface.

I ran some numbers on the CR calculator. To achieve 8.8:1 with a .045" Victor head gasket you would need to mill the head to a chamber volume of 50ccs. @ aproximately 2 cc reduction for every .010" cut that would equal a cut of .060" with an additional .020" for the head gasket differences or a total of .080". Now if you were to deck the block any subtract that amount from the head mill cut. If you deck the block .025" then mill cut the head .035" and .020" for the gasket differences for a total of .055" milled off .

I don't remember the differences between the early and late damper attachments, but IIRC they are not interchangeable. Maybe the seal type?

I may have to call on my brother Dennis, as he put a late model 200 into his '60 Ranchero.

Adios, David
 
The "long and honest" answer is that no matter how you look at it, there are some processes best not subcontracted.

Final clean of the block is one, trial assemblies are another. A few notes:

People talk about scrubbing the bores with warm water and a pure detergent after honing to get all the grit out. This is pretty important, and rinse with scalding hot water as it'll carry away more residue. Soon as you do this, the bores will rust; it happens in front of your eyes. Don't panic; the corrosion is microns thick. Now pour some oil onto your clean hand and liberally smear the bores to put a visible film on them. The corrosion marks will turn grey-black and are now OK.

That said, your basic order for the final clean is: water jackets, then pressurised oilways, then return oilways, then bores. Up to this point I'd leave the oily smudging from a hone, on the bores. Clean the motor facing upside down first, then on each side, and finish the right way up.

Use compressed air and a "prodder" in your water passages, then solvent and a brush (I prefer wax and grease remover) in oilways and oily areas - finished by blowing dry with air as you work.

This is an excellent time to follow the oil passages around; make sure you understand exactly what's going on, and can see all junk is removed.

With your trial fit for deck height, no piston rings are needed - makes the job easier. Plus you only need 20-odd foot pounds on all bearing caps. Don't confuse the order of any main or rod caps, or get them rotated 180°! Note the bearing shell backs must be dry - you only put a splodge of cam lube or similar on the wearing face. When pushing the shells into place, watch for fine shavings of metal getting produced.

That said, you also have to clean the crank, as grinding residue will be left in its oilways. Immediately after cleaning, hand-wipe oil onto the oil seal running surfaces at both ends.

That's pretty much all you need to do in preparation for trial assembly and deck measurement. It'll take eight to ten hours, though, if you're not used to it or in a good workshop. Be aware that some of the cleaning will need doing again for final assembly, as there will be a time period over which stuff sits...
 
My dad gave me the OK for zero decking.

Just to clarify, we won't be replacing pistons or machining the crank. So I should be able to put the crank back in with new mains and then install a piston with a new rod bearing (but without rings) and measure the clearance, right? Can I only install one piston to check deck height or should I do all of them?

He is also OK with having everything tanked, which is good because hand scrubbing all parts for the initial cleaning is just not an efficient use of my time :lol:

When re-assembling, how important is having a constant temperature? We will probably be doing the final assembly outside (yeah, I know I should be doing it in a NASA clean room :lol: ) and right now in GA the temperature will change 20 degrees within the course of the day. :?
 
Ambient temp isn't likely to be an issue!

I'd suggest checking both ends of the block, so put in pistons 1 and 6.

Cut more off! You know you want to. :twisted:
 
I'm gonna call the machine shop today on my lunch break and talk with them about measuring the chambers and zero decking.

Another issue is the pushrods. If I deck the head and the block way down as you guys suggest, will I need to get shorter pushrods? I have the non-adjustable hydro lifter valvetrain.

On my previous engine, the tops of the valve stems and the retainers got chewed up by the rocker arms quite a bit. But those rocker arms were pretty worn when I put that motor together, so who knows?
 
Howdy Eric:

Another purpose for decking the top of the block is to make sure it is parallel to the centerline of the crankshaft. It is a standard part of blueprinting a block. Adam's suggestion of doing only 1 & 6 is as much of a short cut as I'd be willing to take. If 1 & 6 are within .002" of each other I wouldn't worry. Any more then that I'd be taking my crank and block to my machinist to diagnos and remedy.

The hydraulic lifters in your new engine will take up slack up to about .125" before they are out of their range. Adjustible rocker arms and push rods are a good idea though for getting the most out of any cam you use and for having an adjustible feature. While your cleaning, compare the rockers on your old engine to the new. If they are original '62 they will be adjustible. Note the difference in size of the side oil holes, new to old. If the old push rods are in good shape, you can use the adjustibles on you new engine. Make sure the rocker shaft is clean on the inside and all oil holes are fully open. If the shaft has been plugged at all the wear will first show up on the front cylinders pushrods and rockers. Be sure to compare the length of the pushrods too.

Adios, David
 
The bad engine I am replacing is a '69 200. It has the hydraulic non-adjustable valvetrain just like my '78 motor.

I called the machine shop today but the person I needed to talk to was busy. The lady who answered the phone did tell me that they use a belt sander OR a milling machine to resurface heads and blocks but she couldn't tell me anything else. I am guessing they just charge a premium for the milling machine. :roll:
 
Eric Rose":sjxv2jhr said:
The bad engine I am replacing is a '69 200. It has the hydraulic non-adjustable valvetrain just like my '78 motor.

I called the machine shop today but the person I needed to talk to was busy. The lady who answered the phone did tell me that they use a belt sander OR a milling machine to resurface heads and blocks but she couldn't tell me anything else. I am guessing they just charge a premium for the milling machine. :roll:

A belt sander? You've got to be kidding...
 
Bort62":39g7ihni said:
A belt sander? You've got to be kidding...

Not kidding... some places do it that way. I imagine they do budget jobs that way and save the milling machine for those who are willing to pay extra. Or when removing a lot of material they may start on the belt sander and then do the last few thousandths on the mill.

I called them again today but couldn't get in touch with the guy. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get more answers.
 
"Linishing" is one thing... but I wouldn't dare call that a proper surface.

Funny thing is, setting up a mill w/ a fly cutter is less labor intensive than sitting there leaning on the thing w/ a belt sander.
 
Just got off the phone with the machinist again :D

The valve job will be a 3 angle and he won't charge me extra for back cutting. He could add a 5 angle for $40 extra but I don't want to invest that much in the log head. :lol:

Zero decking the block will be $100 which seems to be well worth it if it will help me run 9:1 compression on 87 octane.

He will charge me $10 to measure the chambers and do the math to cut the head for the chamber volume I specify.

And he does all resurfacing on the mill unless its a "touch-up" job.

I should be meeting with Dad today and making sure everything is together to take to his shop. :thumbup:
 
Eric Rose":2sfrdrxd said:
And he does all resurfacing on the mill unless its a "touch-up" job.

Whew.

I know you are on a budget w/ limited finances and all, but may I suggest at least a mild cam upgrade?

It would tear me apart to put a fresh engine together w/ a stock cam. There is no easier time to install it, and the stock cam just leaves SO much to be desired.

And the expense is relatively small.

But you gotta do what ya gotta do...
 
I second the aftermarket cam idea. Trust me once you get it back togethor you will regret it because of all the extra work required to change out the cam.

Thats my biggest regret in my 200 build, everything else i can accept and live with, stock head eh, 1 barrel eh, stock exhaust eh, its all because i can't really use it much beyond that to make it worth upgrading to header and two barrel because the stock cam still sucks.
 
addo":2m8alud8 said:
Just a regrind. Send it off to Reed Cams or similar.

How much does Reed charge for a regrind? Do they have a website?

I will at least throw the 250 cam I have into the motor. 8)
 
rommaster2":220mj9p4 said:
...I can't really use it much beyond that to make it worth upgrading to header and two barrel because the stock cam still sucks.

Exactly. I wish-o-wish that the guy I bought my shortblock from had rebuilt it w/ a better cam. Now I have to decide if I want to tear the whole damn engine apart.

And then your into one of those "while I was in there..." situations.
 
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