Help me find out more about the motor I just bought

[Eric Rose]

Exactly. I wish-o-wish that the guy I bought my shortblock from had rebuilt it w/ a better cam. Now I have to decide if I want to tear the whole damn engine apart.
.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. In order to change the cam I would have to take the head off, right?

Is the stock cam really that bad where I would see such a marked improvement? I think the Classic Inlines 260 dual-pattern seems to be the one everyone is recommending... more duration on the exhaust to compensate for the smaller ports, right?

Edit: just e-mailed Reed Cams, they are just a 90 minute drive from where I live

 

[Bort62]

Yes. The stock cam is so bad (mild) that it leaves massive performance on the table.

With camshafts, there is a threshold that once you are above, you typically have to exchange high-end performance for general driveability and economy (if that is a concern). This really applies to most parts, but I'll focus on cams here...

Once you are above that threshold, bigger isn't necessarily better because you may lose out on some factors that are important to you. (Driveability, economy, etc).

HOWEVER, the factory cam is SO small that it is way below this threshhold. You can go quite a bit bigger before you lose any driveability, economy, etc. And when you do this, you gain a lot in performance.

Camshaft technology in the 60's and 70's was piss-poor compared to what it is today. In addition to this, the first part of the smog era and the low performance orientation of these engines led to camshaft profiles that were compromised to meet the needs of the times. It was one of several shortcuts engineers used to meet requirements. Doesn't meet emissions? Instead of designing a better system, they just slaughtered the cam profile. Performance was low on the totem pole for the falcon 6.

Today, with better gasolines, better understanding of profiles, and more advanced emissions controls (if you care about such a thing) You can have your cake and eat it to. There really is no downside to a mild camshaft upgrade other than the marginal cost of the shaft.

And in the grand scheme of things, that's chump change.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Eric and All:

I'll second Ian's advice on a cam upgrade. The only caveat I'd add is if you're using a C4 trans you will need to choose a cam that will maintain good vacuum.

As far as budget goes, you will need to replace your lifters with a new cam. It is not a good idea to use used lifters with a new cam as each cam lobe and lifter generate a unique wear pattern that is not interchangeable. To safely and successfully breakin a new cam, new lifters are needed.

What did you decide about a cam chain?

Adios, David

 

[Eric Rose]

Howdy Eric and All:
What did you decide about a cam chain?

Probably going to go with a stock replacement type timing chain untill I raise the funds to get the dual roller later on. Shouldn't be too much work to change it out.

As for lifters, I had just replaced the ones in my old motor and they have maybe 200 miles on them. Not even enough to show any wear. Will it be safe to re use them?

 

[addo]

I don't think it's common in America, but we get lifters refaced all the time. One appeal of this, is you get the same metal alloy as OEM - not some questionable third-world product.

Reed Cams' website: http://www.reedcams.com/

Clay Smith also used to do regrinds - probably still do.


Also, a note on machine shops - just the way things are; they all seem to be hot and cold in various areas. I had a fantastic crank regrind and balance job done by one place, who managed to put tiny chatter marks in all the valve seats!

 

[Eric Rose]

Just got a reply for Reed Cams yesterday, he only asked what year my engine was though. I am hoping I will hear from them again soon with some good news.

Dad hasn't been able to take the engine to the machine shop yet, so we spent some time Saturday taking out freeze plugs and also the 2 allen plugs from the oil galleys. So the block should be ready for the hot tank.

We have been painting stuff as well. Will I need high-temp paint for the oil pan and valve cover? Dad is saying that I shouldn't need it but I'm not so sure.

I'm thinking of polishing the valve cover since it is aluminum, and then applying a clear coat so it won't get dull. Has anyone else tried this?

 

[Bort62]

Just got a reply for Reed Cams yesterday, he only asked what year my engine was though. I am hoping I will hear from them again soon with some good news.

Dad hasn't been able to take the engine to the machine shop yet, so we spent some time Saturday taking out freeze plugs and also the 2 allen plugs from the oil galleys. So the block should be ready for the hot tank.

We have been painting stuff as well. Will I need high-temp paint for the oil pan and valve cover? Dad is saying that I shouldn't need it but I'm not so sure.

I'm thinking of polishing the valve cover since it is aluminum, and then applying a clear coat so it won't get dull. Has anyone else tried this?

Where did you find an aluminum valve cover?

 

[Eric Rose]

Sorry, I meant timing cover. My subconcious desire for an aluminum valve cover must have slipped out. I remember seeing some aluminum valve covers on Classic Inline's site though

I just got an E-mail form Reed Cams:

My tm252hdp is what I was thinking for you.Its 252 int and 264 ex duration adv. And duration @ .050 is 205 int and 214 ex. Lift is .432 int and .450 ex. Lobe sep is 110. This has been a great cam for many years and should be a great choice in your engine. To re-grind your cam cost 160.00 and a new cam cost 199.07

 

[addo]

That cam is slightly longer 50 thou duration than original, and quite a bit more lift. It certainly would be torquey on a properly built, fairly stock motor, while retaining a mild note. You'd likely need improved springing, or at least to check for coil bind.

What you save on a reground cam, is no need for the hardened distributor gear. So that's a saving of $40 on the grind, plus another $40 on the gear.

 

[Eric Rose]

What you save on a reground cam, is no need for the hardened distributor gear. So that's a saving of $40 on the grind, plus another $40 on the gear.

But $40 on valvesprings :laugh:

Torque sounds good I won't be spinning this thing to 7k rpm, something that makes most of its power from idle to 3k would probably be fine for me.

I read that stock 289 valvesprings are a little stiffer than 200 valvesprings, is that true? I'll ask the guy from Reed if they have springs too.

 

[Eric Rose]

Talked to the guy at Reed Cams again today, he said it would be a week for turnaround time to regrind my stock cam. Not worth it IMO when I can get one from Classic Inlines for the same price shipped within a week.

I also read something about how the Clay Smith cams Mike sells are more modern grinds, how would his offerings compare to the specs of the cam Reed offered me? Mikes cams all seem to be more aggressive.

I heard someone say dual pattern would be best to make up for a restrictive exhaust. So I am thinking of this one:

Product ID: ARC-268-HDP-08
ARC-268/274 (108*) Hydraulic Dual Pattern Camshaft Details
Adv Dur
@.050
Valve Lift
L/C
Range
268/274
208/218
.455/.480
108* 1800-5600
Limited Supply
Price: $150.00

How does that sound for a mild street cam for an automatic?

 

[addo]

What about your new distributor gear that will be required?

I'm a big believer in re-using a lot of stuff people instinctively replace. Not out of cussedness, but because I have seen FIRST-HAND, how disappointing reproduction parts can be. New is no guarantee of better.

Mike (obviously) tries to supply quality parts. However, he is at the mercy of wholesalers who may set the bar lower than Ford's QC back in the day...

 

[sp_alloy_head]

ER,

Check with http://www.americancustomcam.com/, I'll bet he can regrind your cam to that same spec. It might save you a couple of bux too

 

[Bort62]

What about your new distributor gear that will be required?

I'm a big believer in re-using a lot of stuff people instinctively replace. Not out of cussedness, but because I have seen FIRST-HAND, how disappointing reproduction parts can be. New is no guarantee of better.

Mike (obviously) tries to supply quality parts. However, he is at the mercy of wholesalers who may set the bar lower than Ford's QC back in the day...

I disagree with Addo here. Regrinding cam's is a good option for odd or vintage engines where new aftermarket cam's are not avaliable. That is fortunately not the case with our engines.

And the Jury is still out on the distributor gear issue. There are plenty of people on this forum running aftermarket cam's with cheapo replacement gears. I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

 

[JackFish]

Product ID: ARC-268-HDP-08
ARC-268/274 (108*) Hydraulic Dual Pattern Camshaft Details
Adv Dur
@.050
Valve Lift
L/C
Range
268/274
208/218
.455/.480
108* 1800-5600
Limited Supply
Price: $150.00

How does that sound for a mild street cam for an automatic?

It has been recommended that a 112° LC creates a better vacuum for the automatic tranny.
If it's a daily driver that rpm range may be a bit high. I spend most of my time between 1000 and 3000rpm, and maybe up to 3600 at around 80mph.
I went with the 264/274/112° but haven't yet got around to installing it.

 

[Eric Rose]

My dad ended up taking the motor to the wrong machine shop and they can't do half of the stuff I wanted done to it.

When it comes back it will have been hot-tanked, had freeze plugs and cam bearings installed, and the head will have had a 3 angle valve job (w/ no back cutting)

Can I still have the block zero-decked, and the valves back cut after it comes back?

The guy at the wrong shop my dad took the parts to said it would be a "gas hog" if you do all that stuff to it. Doesn't seem like the truth to me, because if you have an engine that makes more power you're not running it as hard as an engine that has no power.

I'm worried about debris from the zero-decking of the block getting onto the new cam bearings and oil passages... would it be safe it they were covered with masking tape or something?

Will it be OK to back-cut over the existing valve job, or will I need a new valve job?

I don't know what to do now but I really hope the pooch hasn't been screwed.

 

[wallaka]

The back cut doesn't touch the seats or mating surfaces on the valves, so it's OK.

 

[Eric Rose]

The back cut doesn't touch the seats or mating surfaces on the valves, so it's OK.

Well thats good to hear. I guess I should be able to get the guy who was supposed to do the work from the start to resurface the head for 52cc chambers as well.

My biggest concern is zero-decking the block. Can it still be done now that freeze plugs and cam bearings have been installed? I am guessing I will have to cover the cam bearings and oil passages with tape, and then take the new freeze plugs out and blow the water jackets out with compressed air... right?

 

[addo]

There you go.

I've said about how shops drop the ball on people. They lie, make up BS stories, generally worm out of anything interpretive or that which they don't understand. Point 2 is that parents don't always know what's best (or true) either.

You can - and do - zero deck the block after other work. However, the motor needs to be stripped to 100% bare - no bearing, plugs, threaded bits - for cleaning afterwards. If you are doing a trial fit to get deck height don't forget to clean the grit out of the crank oil journals and cylinder bores first - just use motor oil as a protectant at this stage.

As I also said before, there is a whole lot of cleaning through the entire process!

 

[Eric Rose]

You can - and do - zero deck the block after other work. However, the motor needs to be stripped to 100% bare - no bearing, plugs, threaded bits - for cleaning afterwards.

So I will have to take out the freeze plugs and cam bearings that the other shop installed? The freeze plugs don't bother me that much because they are only a buck or so each, but the cam bearings and install are already paid for, I'd hate to have to do it again.