MORE POWER

[Gene Fiore]

Now to a great note, My 78 hex log head is off to Mikes head builder, and I'll be getting the 2bbl direct mount conversion done

Awesome...I'll be anxious to see the dyno numbers after the head is re-installed.

 

[MPGmustang]

Awesome...I'll be anxious to see the dyno numbers after the head is re-installed.

So will I,

I honestly hope that it passes 150hp and I'm really hoping it gets to 160... but I think I'll be closer to 150... after a dyno run with the stock rocker arms I hope to be able to run a pass or two with a set of Mike's HR Rockers.

 

[chad]

...My 78 hex log...to the dyno...

Is that to check it against the chart the site has? (shows sm log, sm log p&p,... hex log... etc all the way up to the X-flow alu?)

 

[MPGmustang]

Chad not really, I already have checked it, the hex log is just the largest of the large logs for 78, they are most common only on 250ci's , my head flows 144cfm @ .600 lift.

Well guys I got my 2bbl direct mount carb mounted, and this time I degree'd the camshaft properly to 4*, turns out all those numbers above was ran on a camshaft advanced 11.5* instead of my desired 4*, the darn engine shop set it to 0* then just moved the key to +4 and called it degree'd... right now the key is on -4 and the lobe center is @ 106* (this cam has 110 LC's) so it's 4* advanced.

I must say the engine is quite peppy, absolutely more than what I'm used too, I'm going to have to be careful. :mrgreen: Wish I went this route in the first place.

I'm sure dyno results are going to come. I'll probably get a baseline on this engine but gotta find smaller jets.

 

[Frankenstang]

Congrats on the new found power MPG

the darn engine shop set it to 0* then just moved the key to +4 and called it degree'd... right now the key is on -4 and the lobe center is @ 106* (this cam has 110 LC's) so it's 4* advanced.

I'm a bit confused (which is not that unusual)...I thought the 'plus' side was advancing valve event timing, and the 'negative' side was retardirg it...Do your degree measures confirm that? and/or Do you think the grind was off on your cam?

Sounds like she's running good

 

[MPGmustang]

I'm a bit confused (which is not that unusual)...I thought the 'plus' side was advancing valve event timing, and the 'negative' side was retardirg it...Do your degree measures confirm that? and/or Do you think the grind was off on your cam?

Robert,
I know the cam is perfect, the key on crankshaft is not perfect, it's "off" think of it in a different light, instead of numbers think of it as letters (in fact I think Mike should change the numbers to letters) and I measured the letter 'F' and found it advanced 11.5*, so I retared the key to letter 'A' to acheive 106*. I think in all cases the Key on the crank shaft is inacurratly accurate to a point. it's correct that when you turn it towards the negative numbers you retard it, and postitive numbers you advance it. the 'key point' is that you have to measure it. just setting it to +4 is NOT advancing the cam 'correctly'.

The other thing I want to mension is the chain, I don't think it's 'perfect' and as such has different imperfections in length sometimes. Example, Mike came over on friday afternoon, and he confirmed that I had it set at 105*, I showed him I achevied true TDC and calculated the LC position out on a calc, the key was set on -4. then tried to get 107-106* I took it back off, tried numerous configurations, like on -6 on the key got 108.25*, the closest I could, all others proved 110+ or -98 and didn't not want those... so i set it back to -4 (to keep it at 105) on the key as before but got 106*, I couldn't believe it, perfect it is. so I tried a test, I asked my cousin to confirm it as I took everything off, and let him set it. he too got 106*

so, two factors (IMO), the key is not accurate except for advancing and retarding the cam in the releative direction rotated. and (IMO) the chain position makes a difference. From this experience I will always degree my own cam with a degree wheel from now on. I'll never trust a shop as this could've been alot worse and possibly damaging.

I hope I shed some light on this dark subject of degree'n a cam... believe me I HAD no IDEA how to do this until this past wednesday, now it's very easy to me and I understand how to set the intake lobe center correctly. I have this forum to thank and those that have helped me understand this.

Richard

 

[Frankenstang]

Okay, maybe I'm not following [scratching head]...but isn't your cam spec'd at 110 lobe center? So if you had degreed it at 110, then you would have used the "0" or 'straight up' keyway? Or did you have to degree it at 106 to get the valve events to match what they should be at 110? (that's what made me wonder about the accuracy of the grind...not questioning clay smith...just trying to follow along )

 

[MPGmustang]

okay plain and simple 0* on the crank shaft gear is NOT!! straight up 0* on the cam. for me mine measured 102.25* LC.

the double roller timing chain set is NOT accurate in the degree it states.

+4 on the crank key showed 11.5* advanced (LC @ 98.5*) (what I started at)
-4 on the crank key shows 4* advanced (LC @ 106*)

I have tried +2 and 0 and -2 all ranged wide, and little off as I changed the chain setting.. can't remember them all. but it is what it is...

 

[MPGmustang]

yes I have a 110* that's where the LC is grinded into the cam, to get it straight up I would set that LC to 110* from TDC but I want it 4* advanced, so I set it to 106* for my 4* advanced. to be sure that it's set I had to measure therefore for 106* (4* advance) I have found -4 key to be correct.

 

[Invectivus]

what about water injection? It won't have as large an impact on a 6 as it does on a 4, but should help a bit.

 

[64 200 ranchero]

i have thought about water injection for a long time, I think it would have a noticeable power gain since it cools the intake temp drastically, and that is one of the big problems with our 6's, a hot intake. it will also increase the octane which could allow for higher comp ratios

 

[woodbutcher]

Hi 62 200 ranchero.Water injection does`nt to my knowledge raise the octane.It cools the cylinder charge to help prevent detonation/preignition.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

 

[64 200 ranchero]

i was thinking of the snow power water/metanol injection, they say it raises the oct, it was designed to be used as a boost cooler http://www.snowperformance.net/

 

[Beemer+ford6lover]

Its the methanol that raises the octane slightly, but its the combination of the 2 cooling down the intake temps that does the most work. It gives the illusion of raising the octane more than it really is. i wonder has anyone ever trying to make a spacer for some of the intakes made from a composite to prevent the heat transfer a bit more, oh wait this a cast log head combo isn't it. nevermind.

 

[chad]

water injection?
'pane or nitros wrks 2...

 

[Frankenstang]

okay plain and simple 0* on the crank shaft gear is NOT!! straight up 0* on the cam.

EDIT:
Richard, I hear ya man...no need to shout... Jk...I'm sure it's been frustrating, but gotta be rewarding now it's done

Was not trying to confuse you, I guess my question could have been more simply stated as,
'If you found intake center line to be 106 and lobe seperation angle for your cam is 110, then would'nt that seem to indicate there is already 4* advance ground into the cam? If so, would retarding the crank gear to a position of -4 negate the advance already ground into the cam?' Just a question for the forum.
...and asking this question as much of/for the others reading along...not trying to confuse you, or put you on the spot

straight up 0* on the cam. for me mine measured 102.25* LC

I see now your intake centerline came out as above not 106 or 110 as expected (can't remember if CS cams are have advance ground in). So your -4 retarding is compensating for that...I think I'm following now...I shouldn't try working while reading along about cams at the same time. Again...no offense intended...My bad 8)

 

[MPGmustang]

Robert,
I did not mean to yell, my appoligies.
I think this conversation should be finished over on the other topic of "camshaft degree confirmation" and let this thread return to "MORE POWER" not to be rude but just to be fair to the topic. I mentioned my findings on this thread as they had a relation to the dyno results posted earlier for future reference.

on the methonal/water injection that would seem little biased for our engines maybe running a setup from snow on our engines might give what a max of 10% hp, I see thier base price of $316 that goes for naturally aspirated cars, and is activated via switch or TP, it could be a nice addon for the drag strip or the occasional street light race, but the extra cost in fuel supliment could over time be saved for a better head to get 20% or more power at no continuing cost. if not going with the snow product maybe running some 116 race gas would give the same results... would be an intresting test either way snow vs race gas

 

[Gene Fiore]

Richard...glad to see you got the direct mount done!!..Woot! Looking forward to the dyno numbers...any idea when you will be doing that?

 

[MPGmustang]

Richard...glad to see you got the direct mount done!!..Woot! Looking forward to the dyno numbers...any idea when you will be doing that?

I think maybe next week, this week I'll be checking everything over and possibly little leaner jets. IIRC they are 59's... lol but not sure.

 

[MPGmustang]

Well it's been a while, thought I might update the progress here... yes I'm back looking for more

well after I degree'd the camshaft properly to 4* advance (was 11.5* in all previous tests) and the 2bbl conversion upgrade I'm quite impressed, and very please with the power...

after the engine I had more problems and ended up replacing the flat ring gear, 4cyl tranny was toast, PP, starter, guide bearing, clutch bearing, clutch, welding my clutch fork, well now I'm back on the road hopefully to stay...

for the past week I've been fine tunning the enigne with Mike's 350cfm Holley Carb, plugs running little rich, probably safer that way. took her for a good road trip, tuned her some more, I think I need smaller jets but for the holley they are easy to find I'll find out which one's I have and go from there. all in all, I'm very pleased with the added performance, and I'm very impressed with the fact that I' havn't gotten hot yet, basicly all of my over-heating issues have dissapeared. (I know some guy's on this forum have mentioned 'advacned cam = heat' to me before, I was just afraid of tearing into the engine, but after all is said and done I'm very glad I degree'd that camshaft and learned to do it myself)

Hope that I'll be back on the dyno again soon, I'll have to run a baseline before we try any swapping of carbs/rockers.

For all those that have helped me, , I have to admit, I'd probably be somewhere else without this Forum.