msd ignition- good deal?

[Anonymous]

I have been getting angry at my stupid points and don't want to buy a dwell meter to set them the right way. I am planning on buying a duraspark distributor from partsamerica for $40 and was going to put in a standard ford ignition module. While I was at the the wrecking yard today, I found an MSD 6200 ignition module in a Dodge pickup. Anyone know if this is something I should jump all over, or not much advantage over a duraspark module? Modules at the wrecking yard are $25. New ones at parts america start at about $30.

Of course I would then need to find a wiring diagram to hook it up. and even then I don't know if it works for sure. Anyonew know if these are prone to failing?

 

[Lazy JW]

You might get lucky.

Check out www.gofastforless.com for some excellent info on doing a conversion that uses the DS2 with a GM HEI module and a TFI (or HEI) coil. This is a very good, low budget ignition, I am running this setup on my 74 F-350.
Joe

 

[Bort62]

Doing the DSII upgrade with a 4 pin GM module is so easy, that if you can't do it - you have no business tinkering with your car in the first place.

And the modules are about ~20$ from partsamerica.com

Look up a '78 camaro w/ V8

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone ever compare the 3 types? (Duraspark, HEI, MSD) best?

MSD claims that it improves almost everything, but if I can but a new Duraspark/HEI module for $20, is it worth screwing around with used MSD stuff?

 

[falcon60]

Anyone ever compare the 3 types? (Duraspark, HEI, MSD) best?

MSD claims that it improves almost everything, but if I can but a new Duraspark/HEI module for $20, is it worth screwing around with used MSD stuff?

I've run all three on various engines. The MSD works very well,but in most street applications is overkill in my opinion. Both the HEI and the Duraspark/HEI combination setups use all stock parts and can be repaired with commonly stocked stuff available anywhere. That's a nice touch.
As Joe said,the Duraspark dist,HEI module,TFI coil is a very nice setup....I'm running one on my warmed-over 200 in the '60 Falcon and it works flawlessly. My dist is a '77,the module is stock mid-'70's GM HEI 4 pin,and the coil is from an '86 Mustang 5.0 with TFI.

Terry

 

[Bort62]

It depends what MSD module you are talking about.

If its a 6AL or the like, then its going to be an improvement over a stock module. If it's just a drop in replacement for a stock module - I doubt it's gonna do much.

 

[fordconvert]

The MSD 6200 is whats now known as a 6A box. New price between $175-225. Its a multi spark capacitive discharge module that will work fine with points (no need to set dwell to exact specs and points will last forever) or magnetic pickups like the Duraspark. There is some debate weather or not they are worth the money but at $25 I dont see any downside. I got one from a buddy for free and put it on my boat (chev 4cly) and it didnt make much differnce at first till I discoverd it retarded the timing by 14*. As soon as I set it back to the factory spec the idle smoothed out and it seemed to be a bit stronger at tip in and such but it was getting dark so I didnt get much time to play with it after I set the timing right. For $25 I would buy all they have. A HEI or duraspark module is going to cost you at least that much new. They are easy to hook up and there are no adjustments other than timing. I guess some timing lights get confused by them but mine is an older plain inductive and seems to work fine. Another bonus is they work fine with points. Go to MSDs site and you can download the instructions and see how easy the hook up is and read their sales pitch on how great they are. If you dont want to mess with them message me with the name of the yard that has them and I will go buy them at that price!


There is a link to download a PDF instruction manual under the picture on the left side.
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_4_6200.htm

 

[Bort62]

The MSD 6A is not a capacitive discharge anything. It's an ignition module who's main feature is multiple-spark below a certain RPM, I think it's 3000.

the 6AL is the same, except it features a rev limiter as well.

 

[fordconvert]

Where I got my info, from MSD's own website:

http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_4_6200.htm

MSD 6A, PN 6200
The MSD 6A is the base model of the capacitive discharge multiple spark 6 Series design. Whether you have a powerful street machine, hard working truck or trick street rod, the powerful multiple sparks of the MSD 6A will ensure complete combustion. Benefits such as quicker ET’s, easier starting, reduced plug fouling, more power and even increased fuel economy can be expected with the 6A’s high energy multiple sparks.
Like all of the MSD 6 Series Ignitions, the 6A will work with virtually any vehicle as long as it has a 12-18 volt electrical system. It can be triggered using breaker points, a magnetic pickup or the output of an electronic amplifier. All necessary parts and wiring instructions are included.


The other interesting thing I was told (but dont know if its true or not) is that 3000 RPM multispark limit is based on a V8 so what they are saying is it can do 24,000 sparks per minute so for us 6ers that should mean 4000 rpm. It still works at high rpms with their stronger super spark there just isnt time to give it multi's.

 

[Bort62]

It is capable of triggering a capacitive discharge device, but it is not itself a capacitive discharge device. If it were, you wouldn't need a coil.

 

[Lazy JW]

I have never seen an actual schematic for the MSD® ignition described above but Capacitor Discharge (CD) ignitions have been around at least since the 1960's. They use a capacitor (or bank of capacitors) which are charged to a higher voltage (around 300 vdc) than a normal 12 volt system. The capacitor(s) when triggered will discharge through the primary windings of the coil, thereby giving the coil a much higher ZAP to work with than a conventional ignition. This capacitor discharge is similar to the PFN (Pulse Forming Network) on the airborne radar equipment I maintained Oh so many years ago in the Marines.
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

I went and got the MSD 6200 today. I picked up a TFI coil off of a 1990 Crown Vic. I think thats the TFI coil. I grabbed some plug wires off off a taurus to test everything. Hopefully I'll get it all hooked up soon.


Everything cost me $30 arty:

 

[Lazy JW]

If you scored a workable MSD w/TFI coil for $30 that is a super good deal
Congrats!
Joe

 

[falcon60]

OPERATING SPECIFICATIONS- MSD # 6200 (6A)
Operating Voltage: +10-18 VDC Negative Ground
Current Requirements: 5 Amps-5,000 RPM
10 Amps-10,000 RPM
RPM Range: 15,000 RPM with 14.4 Volts
Spark Duration: 20° Crankshaft Rotation
Energy Output Max: 105-115 mJ Per Spark
Weight and Size: 2.75 lbs, 8"Lx3.5"Wx2.25"H
Voltage Output Max: Primary: 460-480 Volts
Secondary: 45,000 Volts (Blaster Coil)


As evidenced by the primary voltage output of 460-480 volts,the 6200 is indeed a capacitive-discharge unit. The only two wires that will hook up to your coil will come from the MSD box....nothing else can be hooked up there. The MSD will have a wire to hook to a tachometer if you are running one,and you will need to supply the box with full 12v (make sure the resistance wire is not in the circuit).We're running this setup on my brother's V8 Mustang and it is nice.
Good Score!

Terry

 

[Bort62]

Well hell, I guess I was wrong.

Im going to have to look at the wiring diagram more carefully.

Something isn't adding up - 480v input to the coil is going to give you an insane output voltage.


If it could even handle it.

 

[Lazy JW]

...
Something isn't adding up - 480v input to the coil is going to give you an insane output voltage.


If it could even handle it.

I was speaking in generic terms when I mentioned 300 volts. The coils seem to handle it fine; just grab a-holt and see

Remember, the output voltage only builds up to the point that the spark jumps the gap, then it is the current that lights the fire.
Joe

 

[Bort62]

Well, the coil is merely a transformer. You put a voltage in and you get X times that voltage out.

480 = 40 x12 which means if you had a coil pumping out 44kv on 12v....

 

[Lazy JW]

You are correct, assuming that the coil is ALLOWED to complete its cycle. If we allow this to happen in an ignition circuit the engine won't run so very well.

In a standard battery coil ignition the primary circuit is completed when the breaker points close. This builds up the electro-magnetic field in the coil, which eventually reaches "saturation", meaning the electro-magnetic field has reached its maximum.

When the breaker points open, this stops current flow through the primary windings, causing the electro-magnetic field to collapse. This "collapsing" causes a voltage to be induced in the secondary windings which, having many more turns of wire than the primary side causes a dramatic increase in voltage (with a corresponding decrease in amperage).

This voltage will rise UP TO THE POINT WHERE THE CURRENT CAN FLOW ACROSS THE GAP(S) of the plug and the rotor/cap area. This is an important detail that is often overlooked/mis-understood. As soon as this "breakthrough" voltage is reached the current flows (sparks) across the gap. If we had a coil of infinite capacity to maintain flow then the voltage would indeed continue to rise up to theoretical maximum but in actuality the voltage drops as the current is pushed through the circuit. This voltage drop is similar to battery voltage dropping when a starter is engaged; if the battery had infinite current ability the voltage would not drop. With a finite supply of energy available the voltage simply must drop.

If we put too large of a gap in the plug then the voltage will continue to build up to the maximum level of the coil's capability but will never reach the breakthrough voltage thus causing a mis-fire.

Remember, voltage is Electro-Motive Force (EMF). It is merely the pressure that pushes the current through. Voltage can exist without current flow (infinite resistance) but current cannot exist (flow) without voltage (EMF) to push it through a resistance.

It is the current (amps, joules) that actually produces the heat which lights the fire, not the voltage. Just think about an arc welder; relatively low voltage but high amperage which melts the metal.
Joe

 

[Bort62]

I perfectly understand all that. I have a Mechanical Engineering Degree and the way electricity works is entirely too familiar to me.

However, the breakthrough voltage as you call it depends on the resistance between the hot side and gnd. If you increase the resistance, IE gap the plugs wider or run a denser mixture, you are going to increase the voltage the coil ramps up to.

In a situation where you have a plug that's really badly fouled or otherwise, you would get very high resistance and as a result very high breakthrough voltage.

and blam, you just arced 400 kv through the insulation on your plug wire.

Apparently it works, it just seems odd to me. Still going to have to find a wiring diagram.

 

[Bort62]

After reviewing the wiring diagram, it would appear you are correct. Interesting way to go about doing things, and I have to say makes the MSD a lot more interesting in terms of what it actually does.

don't touch that Orange wire while it is running, either