Quench

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Hi everyone,

Can someone take the time to explain quench and why milling the block to zero deck is better for quench? If I mill the block can I increase compression without having to upgrade octane from pump?

Bob
 
i'm just going to take a stab at it...i feel like i learn better if i make some mistakes and get corrected.

I believe quench is the area or movement of the air fuel mixture in the chamber, a good quench is when the mixture can smoothly swirl around the chamber and also allow for a better explosion...i'm not sure but i think it also has to do with the way the mixture reaches the spark plug. I think that if u mill the block, the top of the piston is closer to the top of the block and the mixture can move more evenly in the chamber, maybe even the fact that the spark ignites closer to the piston? not too sure, i'm just waiting for someone to smack me backside the head and say how it really is.
 
You need quench on the side of the cylinder opposite the spark plug to promote high turbulence - - -
which makes for a better flame and burn = more power, better running, less detonation.

How do you get it? By getting the top of the piston as close as you can to the head without actually hitting it. The gases have to be squeezed out of that space, and the squeezing/ high speed of the gases makes for a nice, "swirly" flame.

Most people will say no closer than .040", but I have known some racers (where evey single HP counts) that have got the engine set up so that the piston is just a thousandth away from the head at max power.
 
Howdy Bob and All:

"Quench" refers to the area between the top, flat part of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder head. The quench is created by "deck height"- the distance from the top of the piston and the top of the block, PLUS the compressed thickness of the head gasket. Both of these dimensions create "deck clearance". Deck clearance is the same as the quench dimension.

The quench effect is only present on wedge type combustion chamber heads. An effective quench squeezes fresh mixture from the recesses not in the wedge chamber or the piston dish into the chamber/dish.

The tighter the quench distance the greater the squeeze, causing turbulence and better combustion efficiency as a result.

Too little quench distance and the top of the piston begins to hit the deck of the cylinder head at higher rpm/stress. Wear of parts, causing clearances to grow, adds to this concern.

Milling the head does not reduce quench. It does raise CR

Changing to a thicker head gasket adds to the quench distance. It also lowers CR.

Decking the top of the block, on a rebuild, is the only way to effectively reduce quench distance and imporve the quench effect. Decking is typically done to level, or create a flat mating surface, on a rebuild. Replacement pistons are frequently built with are reduces pin height to compensate.

Since the deck height on a typical 200 block is aproximately .025" and the stock OEM steel shim head gasket is typicall .025" a typical 200 has a deck clearance or quench distance of about .050". This is on the verge of too large to have a positive quench effect. A quench height of .035" to .040" is about ideal with stock rods and cast pistons.

Other factors- While a dished piston, all other factors being equal, will make more power then a flat-topped piston or doned piston, to wide a dish lessen the quench area. Maintaining a high quench area to bore when selecting and modifying parts is important.

I'm thinking of other factors too, but I've got to run my 92 year old Dad to a dentist appt. This should get you started thinking, but I'll add more later.

Adios, David
 
Thanks for the replies,

I'm a little more knowledgable now about what quench is and why decking the block will help improve quench. Is .040 clearance from the top of the block to the top of the piston at TDC considered zero deck. I'm not sure of the clearances when we say zero deck the block. It has to have some clearance to allow for rod stretch at high RPMs true?

Bob
 
"Zero deck" means there is no clearance between the top of the piston and the top of the block. All the clearance is contained in the head gasket and the combustion chamber.
 
Because composition head gaskets are pretty thick, some racers I know will actually have the piston .005" - .010" (or more) sticking out of the top of the block at TDC. You can't cut a block that far, though....customs pistons are needed.

The amount of quench you "NEED" depends on your performance goals and budget allowed.
 
Alloy LS-1 series Chevy V8's like the ZO6, the 5.7 and 6.0's, are postive deck engines from the factory.

Over 9 thou of the piston pokes into the chamber. Yeah, its a dished piston for sure, but the edges of the piston block the hot anular wall of the cylinder walls at maximum squeeze, and rise right into the 27 thou gasket. Chevy engineers discovered mixture motion and spark flame travel could be effectively managed like this, with the abilty to run very efficent combustion process.

It looks like this is the ideal if you are able to ensure there is at least 15 to 30 thou distance from the open valves if something horible, like cam chain failure happened. Mopar B and 426 Hemi-engine guys have been doing it for years at the drags. Setting the bump (cylinder to valve clearnance at top dead centre) is both a diesel trick and a rather sad consequence of the 426 Hemi combustion chamber. It is time consuming job wet building up each rod and crank journal with a blue printed piston of a stock deck height, and then adding as much plasticine to the top of the piston until you can run the piston right into the compbustion chamber. The cam has to be fitted, the valves, the steel shim or copper gasket and then everything checked, and then disassembled again if the plasticine gets hit by the exhast or inlet valve.

Finally, the pistons are blue printed and the final amount of deck height on the block can be decked down to get the ideal amount of piston bump.

I'd say there are 20 influences into detonation, but having the best piston deck would give a 1 to maybee 5% help to getting a high compression ratio to work on the street, if you were fastidious drag race prep detail freek . All Detriot engines have tended to stick to 25 thou below the deck, and zero deck production engines were really rare because of rod stretch at maximum revs. This can cause a large cracked piston if the anular region around the piston hits the quench area of the head. Even the Boss Cleveland 351 with 11.7:1 compression had a 16 thou below deck piston!

To ensure a zero deck 200 or 250 engine never comes to grief via vlave or piston contact, the piston would have to be machined back to ensure it never comes within 45 thou of the head and valves under maximum revs. Rods can grow up to 30 thou under load. That kind of detail costs a bucketload of machine engineering and process engineering time. This was impossible for Detriot to do until the advent of totally new engine plant tooling.

Chevy do it from the factory, and its just one of the many reasons the car can run huge compression ratios with rich air fuel settings without detonation.
 
BIGBLOCKCAPRI, what are your other mods? What kind of gas mileage do you get and what grade fuel do you run?
 
Howdy Bob and All:

Zero deck is when the top of the piston comes up even with the top of the block.

Deck height is when the piston does not come up even with the top of the block. The difference is measured it thousandth of an inch. ie- the deck height is .025"- meaning the top of the piston is .025" below the top of the block when at top dead center.

Deck clearance is the combination of deck height and compressed gasket thickness. In a typical '66 200 deck cleanrance will we about .050", - the combination of deck height of .025" and the thickness of the compressed headgasket of .025". Deck clearance is critical to keeping the valves from hitting the pistons and keeping the piston from hitting the head.

While .050" is not too bad a quench dimension for a stock 200 it is not ideal. An ideal quench height- AKA deck clearance, is more like .035" to .040". Any more and the quench effect on the compression stroke gets lazy, or less efficient. Any less and you will run the risk of breaking parts by having them come into contact as stress (rpm) and wear (clearances) take place.

Optimizing quench can best (cheapest) be achieved by milling the top of the block. A block is typically decked or surfaced when being rebuilt/bored to achieve a flat, true surface. The amount taken off is usually no more than necessary to acheive a flat true mounting surface. But, a cut of .25" is perfectly safe. Blocks have been safely decked up to .090".

Another component of optimizing quench is the piston face. Again, all else being equal a dished piston will make more power than a flat-topped piston is a wedge shaped combustion chamber head engine. The dish part is not the top of the piston. Ideally the dish should mirror the shape of the combustion chamber. Such a configuration would optimize the Quench to Bore Ratio. Since no pistons with a "D" shaped dish are available, we are left with the small dish cast replacement piston as the best alternative.

Optimizing the quench effect becomes more important as bore and/or compression increase.

Be sure to either use head studs or washers on the head bolts on reassembly to avoid bottoming out the bolts in the block and not getting a true torquing on the head.

Adios, David
 
Howdy All:

Absolutely!!! Not .25" but .025". Thanks for the catch Strange. You're not so strange after all.

Adios, David
 
ALL WRONG PEOPLE!
Quench is the area of the combustion chamber usually on the oposite side from the spark plug used to QUENCH the fire so their isnt detonation with high compression, isnt used much these days with emissions, knock sensing and 4 valve pentroof chambers.
SQUISH which what you are all talking about, is the are of the chamber that is closely (1mm) approached by the piston that squeezes the mixture pomoting turbulence to arrive at lower emission and higher thermal effiency, it isnt always going to improve power but it is used a lot although less so with pent roof chambers as they use port shape to arrive at tumble to promote mixing.
A7m
 
I wouldn't go so far to say we are all wrong.

As I read through all the responses, I don't see any glaring errors from an engineering or technological standpoint.

For all *practical* purposes, the information is this thread is correct.
 
Three terms for combustion chamber and ignition engineers.
Quench,
squish,
and Squench.
First two were defined by Richardo,
3rd is a mixture of the first two.

All 3 exist on the log, 2V, and Argie heads.

Check Mark P's head gasket and decking posts, and you'll see he affirms what A7M says, but I've never been into 'factions'. Panic had some great posts on chambers too.


Great stuff guys. Engineers sit down for hours agruing over terms so they can quantitfy every little change they make. The definitions are vital, and quench and squish cause different behaviour if you alter the dimensions of the piston deck.

David Vizard found adding weld on Ford OHC engines fixed inherent problems without hurting emissions, yet Dearborn guys and Broadmedows Ford Special Vehciles engineers like Bill Santecionee couldn't eliminate quench quick enough on the closed chamber 351 4V heads becasue of its adverse detonation chararcteristics. Some pent roof Daimler Chrylser four valve diesels I've seen look to have quench to gain compression, but ever since the Japanese comercialized the pent- roof Cosworth combustion chamber with the 4AGE in 1984, the quench chamber has been dead.

Alfa Romeo's latest JTS heads are just a mixture of Hondas stratified charge CVCC with some of the Australian Orbital Combustion Process diciplines, and they have specially blue printed pistons and heads which are a half bread between quecnh and a full stratified charge engine.

Do a search, and you'll see the terms quench and squish still come up today.
 
xecute®™© he he":k13vnd4c said:
Bill Santecionee couldn't eliminate quench quick enough on the closed chamber 351 4V heads becasue of its adverse detonation chararcteristics

That's news to me.

I have always heard US 2V Cleveland heads were so much lesser desirable because their large, open chambers cause detonation problems,

Versus the more desireable 4V heads, which had huge ports but smaller chambers to reduce detonation tendencies.

That is why there is such demand in the US for Aussie 2V 351C heads, because you get a closed chamber and smaller ports.
 
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