SOLVED: Still running poorly, still having vacuum issues
- Thread starter cfmustang
- Start date
Uhh....GTM is right on. You are feeding fuel to a vent, not to the inlet needle and seat.
Sorry, this update is going to be long...
The vent line suggestion was right on the money. I stole the fuel line barb from my 32/36 and installed it in the 5200, rehooked up the fuel line and look ma, no gasoline fountain.
Actually, the new carb gives me a lot of hope.
When I first hooked it up (didn't hook up the linkage though, so that made it fun running from the driver's seat to the engine compartment), it started but ran terribly. As long as it was choked it would run, if I disenguaged the choke it would die. Then I remembered I had the old pcv valve that was leaking vacuum and leaning out the mixture.
With it running, I plugged the pcv line and then I could disenguage the choke - it was running lean like it should with the bad pcv! So far so good. I also verified it was running lean by partially covering the the top of the carb and it smoothed out as well.
I put the new pcv valve in and then I could run the carb with or without the choke - also a good sign that this carb was not running rich like mine. I was starting to set the carb to factory settings and see how it went when my ignition switch picked the perfect time to break.
The switch has been acting up every now and then for weeks. Some times I would turn the key and nothing. Then if I turned it back and tried again, it would start right up. This would happen maybe one in 20 tries. Last night it was every other try and then finally nothing. In fact, at one point I turned it to accessory and then it started and continued to try to start. I'm not sure what broke there, it was too dark to troubleshoot. It felt like the switch came off the cylinder... I am taking suggestions.
As for the carb, it looks like the old carb was running really rich. I am not sure why. I can say that when I took the old carb off, the gas that came out was brown. The gas coming out of the fuel line is clear. It may be that the inside of the carb is still full of varnish even after the rebuild. Also, the carb linkage has been starting to bind up on me receintly, but I may have been cranking the carb down to the base too hard to avoid vac leaks. Any ideas on why it was rich?
GTM and I have some ideas from some various books on how to correct the rich condition in the carb, but the brown gas and throttle concern me.
I am thinking it is time to bite the bullet and buy a new carb. If I do, I think I am staying with Weber. I have already learned so much about it now and the Holly would be starting from scratch (not to mention trying to fab a linkage). The question is, should I get another 32/36 or a 38?[/u]
The vent line suggestion was right on the money. I stole the fuel line barb from my 32/36 and installed it in the 5200, rehooked up the fuel line and look ma, no gasoline fountain.
Actually, the new carb gives me a lot of hope.
When I first hooked it up (didn't hook up the linkage though, so that made it fun running from the driver's seat to the engine compartment), it started but ran terribly. As long as it was choked it would run, if I disenguaged the choke it would die. Then I remembered I had the old pcv valve that was leaking vacuum and leaning out the mixture.
With it running, I plugged the pcv line and then I could disenguage the choke - it was running lean like it should with the bad pcv! So far so good. I also verified it was running lean by partially covering the the top of the carb and it smoothed out as well.
I put the new pcv valve in and then I could run the carb with or without the choke - also a good sign that this carb was not running rich like mine. I was starting to set the carb to factory settings and see how it went when my ignition switch picked the perfect time to break.
The switch has been acting up every now and then for weeks. Some times I would turn the key and nothing. Then if I turned it back and tried again, it would start right up. This would happen maybe one in 20 tries. Last night it was every other try and then finally nothing. In fact, at one point I turned it to accessory and then it started and continued to try to start. I'm not sure what broke there, it was too dark to troubleshoot. It felt like the switch came off the cylinder... I am taking suggestions.
As for the carb, it looks like the old carb was running really rich. I am not sure why. I can say that when I took the old carb off, the gas that came out was brown. The gas coming out of the fuel line is clear. It may be that the inside of the carb is still full of varnish even after the rebuild. Also, the carb linkage has been starting to bind up on me receintly, but I may have been cranking the carb down to the base too hard to avoid vac leaks. Any ideas on why it was rich?
GTM and I have some ideas from some various books on how to correct the rich condition in the carb, but the brown gas and throttle concern me.
I am thinking it is time to bite the bullet and buy a new carb. If I do, I think I am staying with Weber. I have already learned so much about it now and the Holly would be starting from scratch (not to mention trying to fab a linkage). The question is, should I get another 32/36 or a 38?[/u]
Okay, lets start with the timing. You are pretty close for full advance-38 overall would be even better, but will require work on the dizzy. WOT pinging at 36 degrees would indicate a lean jet in the carb most likely-easy to erradicate. My own vehicle does not idle well below 800 rpm, so don't be alarmed! What dizzy are ya running? That will tell me what springs we can substitute to bring in the advance a little sooner. Full advance between 2500 and 2800 seems to work the best for our application according to my sources. Offer is still open!
I'm running the stock mechanical/vac advance dizzy from a 68 Mustang. I pulled the Load-a-matic last fall.
I figured that the dizzy was close enough for now, but I will take you up on your offer once I get the carb issues sorted out. I hope to take a look at the ignition switch this evening (if I don't get stuck at work too late) and I ordered a new 38 DGES from Stovebolt yesterday which should be arriving in about a week.
If the car gods smile on me, just once, I'll have the new carb on by next weekend and be able to get it tuned. Then we can tackle the dizzy.
Thanks.
I figured that the dizzy was close enough for now, but I will take you up on your offer once I get the carb issues sorted out. I hope to take a look at the ignition switch this evening (if I don't get stuck at work too late) and I ordered a new 38 DGES from Stovebolt yesterday which should be arriving in about a week.
If the car gods smile on me, just once, I'll have the new carb on by next weekend and be able to get it tuned. Then we can tackle the dizzy.
Thanks.
cfmustang
What's the status of your project? When last heard from you were making nice progress. A cheap tool to ease your testing is a remote starter switch. This attaches to your solinoid. You can then start the car from the engine compartment and not have to keep running to the drivers seat. You will need the ignition switch on so care should be taken that you don't inadvertantly cause a spark with your ignition live and start a fire. watch your car and posibly your garage burn down will ruin your whole year, trust me.
Good Luck
69.5mav
What's the status of your project? When last heard from you were making nice progress. A cheap tool to ease your testing is a remote starter switch. This attaches to your solinoid. You can then start the car from the engine compartment and not have to keep running to the drivers seat. You will need the ignition switch on so care should be taken that you don't inadvertantly cause a spark with your ignition live and start a fire. watch your car and posibly your garage burn down will ruin your whole year, trust me.
Good Luck
69.5mav
A
Anonymous
Guest
69.5Mav":1lmxl0v5 said:
Make sure it isn't in gear!!
If it starts, it will drive.....
Sorry about the lack of updates.
I was making progress till the ignition switch died (and after examining it in the daylight, it didn't just die - it self-destructed). The new 38 DGES arrived yesterday (shiny!
), but the ignition switch isn't scheduled to arrive till Saturday.
My guess is that it wont be here till Monday, which stinks because I lose another whole weekend and summers are always so short here on the north coast. Well, they may suprise me and it may show up early...
Either way, I should have it back together in a few days. I think this is the last piece in the puzzle. Fingers are crossed!
I was making progress till the ignition switch died (and after examining it in the daylight, it didn't just die - it self-destructed). The new 38 DGES arrived yesterday (shiny!
), but the ignition switch isn't scheduled to arrive till Saturday.My guess is that it wont be here till Monday, which stinks because I lose another whole weekend and summers are always so short here on the north coast. Well, they may suprise me and it may show up early...
Either way, I should have it back together in a few days. I think this is the last piece in the puzzle. Fingers are crossed!
pedal2themetal45
Famous Member
HI YA
If you don't want to wait and lose a weekend you could just run a hot wire from the battery to (not know which dizzy your are running) eather the coil and or the module box (if you are running a Durspark II) and just jump the starter sylinod and get it running so you could work on your other issues..
Tim
If you don't want to wait and lose a weekend you could just run a hot wire from the battery to (not know which dizzy your are running) eather the coil and or the module box (if you are running a Durspark II) and just jump the starter sylinod and get it running so you could work on your other issues..
Tim
Linc's 200
Good point! One does not want to have to chaise ones' car down the street. With my luck it would run best ever before getting totaled.
I once got stuck in a parking lot on ice in my brothers camaro, I noticed the wheels would spin with my foot off the gas so I got out and pushed only to watch the car take off on me ( on the cold high idle cam ) and plow through a nieghbors fence. Little or no damage to the car but the fence was demolished and I had to scrape a lot of egg off my face.
I see someone has posted the hot wire tip so with that you should be able to test.
Good Luck
69.5mav
Good point! One does not want to have to chaise ones' car down the street. With my luck it would run best ever before getting totaled.
I once got stuck in a parking lot on ice in my brothers camaro, I noticed the wheels would spin with my foot off the gas so I got out and pushed only to watch the car take off on me ( on the cold high idle cam ) and plow through a nieghbors fence. Little or no damage to the car but the fence was demolished and I had to scrape a lot of egg off my face.
I see someone has posted the hot wire tip so with that you should be able to test.
Good Luck
69.5mav
Okay.
Installed new Ignition switch: Yeah! (but what a pain till you figure out the trick to getting the old one out)
After starting the car, had a small under dash fire: Boo! (the sender wire to the oil gauge shorted out and caught fire. Not sure why, but I caught it quick!)
Installed new 38 DGES: Not sure yet. I need to order a part to hook it up to my linkage...not big deal. However, this carb is running rich as all get out too.
Here is where I am confused:
My old 32/36 was running 65 idle jets and was really rich. The loaner was not rich at all and I checked that and the primary idle jet was a 90! Shouldn't that be richer?
The new 38 has 45s for both jets. It is real rich too. I have to induce a vacuum leak below the carb for it to run. I didn't have any jets smaller than 45, so I tried going up. Seems to run a little better. I had the primary idle jet all the way up to an 80 and the secondary up to a 65 (that is as big as I had for the secondary) and it seemed to be better and I could get it to run, albeit poorly with that vacuum leak closed. With the 45s it would stall immediately with the vac leak closed.
Am I crazy, the bigger the number jet, the richer they should be, right? Yet the carb is clearly rich. Also, the choke is disenguaged. Engaugeing the choke stalls the carb too. Shouldn't bigger jets make it run worse?
Installed new Ignition switch: Yeah! (but what a pain till you figure out the trick to getting the old one out)
After starting the car, had a small under dash fire: Boo! (the sender wire to the oil gauge shorted out and caught fire. Not sure why, but I caught it quick!)
Installed new 38 DGES: Not sure yet. I need to order a part to hook it up to my linkage...not big deal. However, this carb is running rich as all get out too.
Here is where I am confused:
My old 32/36 was running 65 idle jets and was really rich. The loaner was not rich at all and I checked that and the primary idle jet was a 90! Shouldn't that be richer?
The new 38 has 45s for both jets. It is real rich too. I have to induce a vacuum leak below the carb for it to run. I didn't have any jets smaller than 45, so I tried going up. Seems to run a little better. I had the primary idle jet all the way up to an 80 and the secondary up to a 65 (that is as big as I had for the secondary) and it seemed to be better and I could get it to run, albeit poorly with that vacuum leak closed. With the 45s it would stall immediately with the vac leak closed.
Am I crazy, the bigger the number jet, the richer they should be, right? Yet the carb is clearly rich. Also, the choke is disenguaged. Engaugeing the choke stalls the carb too. Shouldn't bigger jets make it run worse?
Okay... I went and tried it again.
GTM had the idea that it might be the fuel pressure. Since the two actual Webers seemed to be rich and the Holly 5200 was not, the theory was that maybe the Holly was set up to run on higher fuel pressure than the Webers.
To test it out, I disconnected the fuel line from the inlet of the fuel pump and plugged that so it would not leak. Then, I started the car so it would be running off of the fuel in the bowl only. If it ran better, that would be the proof that it was the pressure.
Nope. Same.
So, I decided to start at the beginning with the two 45's for the idle jets. I then set everything to the base line like Weber suggested and got it running real slow. Then I set the mixture screws (there are two on this carb). Once I had it at the baseline, I covered the vacuum leak and it kept running. So, I played with the mixture screws some more and got it the best I could by ear. Finally, I brought the idle up to 900 when it runs smooth and it is purring like a kitten (okay, a big kitten with a big cam). Now, when I remove the vacuum cap, the idle barely changes (it actually goes up just barely, so it is a smidge rich, but good enough for now).
Now I can't wait to get that linkage adapter and DRIVE. This thing has loads of response now. Nice and snappy! Then bigger carb just sounds healthier too!
GTM had the idea that it might be the fuel pressure. Since the two actual Webers seemed to be rich and the Holly 5200 was not, the theory was that maybe the Holly was set up to run on higher fuel pressure than the Webers.
To test it out, I disconnected the fuel line from the inlet of the fuel pump and plugged that so it would not leak. Then, I started the car so it would be running off of the fuel in the bowl only. If it ran better, that would be the proof that it was the pressure.
Nope. Same.
So, I decided to start at the beginning with the two 45's for the idle jets. I then set everything to the base line like Weber suggested and got it running real slow. Then I set the mixture screws (there are two on this carb). Once I had it at the baseline, I covered the vacuum leak and it kept running. So, I played with the mixture screws some more and got it the best I could by ear. Finally, I brought the idle up to 900 when it runs smooth and it is purring like a kitten (okay, a big kitten with a big cam). Now, when I remove the vacuum cap, the idle barely changes (it actually goes up just barely, so it is a smidge rich, but good enough for now).
Now I can't wait to get that linkage adapter and DRIVE. This thing has loads of response now. Nice and snappy! Then bigger carb just sounds healthier too!
Chris, why don't you just put a holley 7448-350 CFM carb & be done with your problems.
From what I have read you are just beating a dead dog.
If your ignition is right on then its a carburation issue.
If the holley doesn't fix the problem you need to take it to a professional to get you on the right path.
Chris after 195 replys if you don't have the problem fixed it is time to throw in the towel.
How much do you want for the car, it looks like a very nice ride I would love to own it. William
From what I have read you are just beating a dead dog.
If your ignition is right on then its a carburation issue.
If the holley doesn't fix the problem you need to take it to a professional to get you on the right path.
Chris after 195 replys if you don't have the problem fixed it is time to throw in the towel.
How much do you want for the car, it looks like a very nice ride I would love to own it. William
Thats just it. I think I have it.
I wont call it done till I try it out tomorrow and see how it runs cold and then on the road, but this was a major victory!
I was able to set it to Weber prescribed baseline settings without any vacuum leaks. It has all ports covered and even the new leak free pcv valve. The engine it not shaky at idle at all, either.
Like I said, I was able to use Webers prescribed instructions (something I have NEVER been able to do). Note, I had to open the idle mixture screws out 2.5 turns and the tuning instructions say any more then 1.5 means I need to richen up the idle jets a step, but that is it. I need to order a off the shelf Weber linkage piece to hook up the throttle, so I will just pick up a set of 50 jets while I am at it.
Once that is done, I'll hook up the dizzy to manifold vacuum and back the initial down a tad to make up for the vacuum advance and I should be able to rock and roll.
By the way, anyone know what guage wire is used in the dash harness? I need to splice a new section to replace the wire that shorted out...
I wont call it done till I try it out tomorrow and see how it runs cold and then on the road, but this was a major victory!
I was able to set it to Weber prescribed baseline settings without any vacuum leaks. It has all ports covered and even the new leak free pcv valve. The engine it not shaky at idle at all, either.
Like I said, I was able to use Webers prescribed instructions (something I have NEVER been able to do). Note, I had to open the idle mixture screws out 2.5 turns and the tuning instructions say any more then 1.5 means I need to richen up the idle jets a step, but that is it. I need to order a off the shelf Weber linkage piece to hook up the throttle, so I will just pick up a set of 50 jets while I am at it.
Once that is done, I'll hook up the dizzy to manifold vacuum and back the initial down a tad to make up for the vacuum advance and I should be able to rock and roll.
By the way, anyone know what guage wire is used in the dash harness? I need to splice a new section to replace the wire that shorted out...
Chris, I will have to give you credit, you have the patience of Jobe.
I admire your patience despite all the aggravation you have putting up with your engine problems.
I work in the automotive field & I do not have the time or your type of patience to deal with your the monster you are dealing with.
If you get the problem fixed without professional help, besides the help from the forum more power to you.
I hope this time you got it under control. William
I admire your patience despite all the aggravation you have putting up with your engine problems.
I work in the automotive field & I do not have the time or your type of patience to deal with your the monster you are dealing with.
If you get the problem fixed without professional help, besides the help from the forum more power to you.
I hope this time you got it under control. William
Thanks.
This hasn't been easy. I have been ready to up and qut several times. If this had not been my first car that I bought 18 years ago, I probably would have sold it by now...
Fortunately, there have been a lot of people who have been very helpful.
GTM1086 loaned me that Holly 5200 which finally helped me prove it was the carb once and for all. I am cleaning it up and will try and get it sent back to you later this week.
matv91 has been helping me learn how to really troubleshoot the carb and the relationship between fuel and air and how that relates to tuning the car. By the way, I accidentially gave GTM credit for some of the ideas matv91 gave me. Either way, I could not have gotten as far as I have without a lot of peoples help and advice. Thanks.
Anyway, started it up this morning and still running good. I actually think I could probably tweek it even a little better but I'll wait till I get it on the road and give it the real test. I still have to tweak the choke a bit, but that is a slow process (a little bit every day).
I'll let everyone know what happens once I get the linkage adapter.
This hasn't been easy. I have been ready to up and qut several times. If this had not been my first car that I bought 18 years ago, I probably would have sold it by now...
Fortunately, there have been a lot of people who have been very helpful.
GTM1086 loaned me that Holly 5200 which finally helped me prove it was the carb once and for all. I am cleaning it up and will try and get it sent back to you later this week.
matv91 has been helping me learn how to really troubleshoot the carb and the relationship between fuel and air and how that relates to tuning the car. By the way, I accidentially gave GTM credit for some of the ideas matv91 gave me. Either way, I could not have gotten as far as I have without a lot of peoples help and advice. Thanks.
Anyway, started it up this morning and still running good. I actually think I could probably tweek it even a little better but I'll wait till I get it on the road and give it the real test. I still have to tweak the choke a bit, but that is a slow process (a little bit every day).
I'll let everyone know what happens once I get the linkage adapter.
