Something doesn't feel & sound right...

[barishiman]

Yesterday we went to crank the car over and to reset the timing to 14*. As I got closer to 14*, the engine would begin to run rough until I got to 14* and the engine died. At 12*, the engine was running somewhat smooth. I initially had the timing set at TDC and it was running fine.

After having the car warm up, we started to feel something was wrong. It sounded like that one of the cylinders were missing. Plus there was a scrapping noise coming around the tranni ! We tried to put it in gear and the engine died immediately. The tranni kept failing to engage everytime we tried to put it in gear thus killing the engine. The day before I had the timing set at TDC and the tranni engaged into gear then back out constantly.

Now to today... I pulled the plugs this morning and found that all the plugs were black. 1,3,&6 had alittle bit of oil, but they weren't soaked. 4 was alittle loose when unscrewing it, I assume that could be the misfiring ordeal.

I got another vacuum gauge to test compression. This is what I got.

I tried to put the end in the spark plug hole but it wouldn't create a seal well enough to test the compression. I would crank the engine manually and could get a reading then it would fall. I could only achieve 8in HG before the reading fell.

I've never done compression testing so I'm like pissing in the wind here. I took all the spark plugs out to do the testing. This might sound stupid but do they make a spark plug fitting to test compression?

What else should I do?

 

[rbohm]

8) that is the wrong gauge to test compression. you need a compression gauge. you run the risk of blowing that gauge apart when you use it like you want. also it sounds like your timing was pretty close to where you wanted it, and as you advanced it you went too far. remember these balancershave a tendency to slip over the years and give wrong readings.

 

[weeds]

Hey, I just bought one just like that.

Rbohm is correct. The vacuum gauge you have will not survive a compression test. You should expect a compression test to run a gauge up to 140+ psi, far in excess of the 10 psi that gauge is capable of.

Go back to the zoo and ask the monkey for a compression tester. The hose that is attached to that one will be threaded like a spark plug.

 

[barishiman]

Due to my stupidity I got the wrong gauge. A trip to Napa solved that.

I replaced the dizzy cap and put in some Autolite copper core plugs and gapped them at 40. I'm been fighting with the timing all day long. Seems that everytime I reinsert the dizzy at 12* on the compression stroke, it usually is shows the timing mark pass 14* so far to underneath the water pump.

As for the tranni, I think I've got the problem down. Currently we've got the engine idling at 1100 rpms and we can't get it to drop without killing the engine. The timing has to still be off. I"m about to kick that dizzy with my size 14 foot.

We pulled some of the plugs out and they are beginning to turn black.

So... I"m thinking about doing this.

1. Do the compression check in the morning
2. Throw out the timing light and do the timing by hand ( w/ vac gauge)
3. Check for vacuum leaks
4. Watch Nascar

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Barishiman,

I'm wondering if you are running the adjustable rocker arm assembly? One of my plugs looked like that due to the exhaust valve not closing completely,

 

[barishiman]

Oke..,

I am running the stock adjustable rocker arm assembly. I can't hear any rattling from the rockers. I am thinking of loosening each rocker about a 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Its very hard to hear the tapping with an open header. Looks like I'll have to wait until Sunday to work on the car.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Any chance your timing chain could be worn? Having trouble getting it in time, stalling when putting in gear, and fouled plugs seems to all be symptoms.

 

[barishiman]

I hope its not the timing chain. To my knowledge, the engine had a total rebuild 6+ years ago. Probably a total of 60000+ miles on the hardware, going by a guesstamite by the broken odometer. The thing is, the car ran fine before all the mods and upgrades.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

check for slack in the timing chain, I'd say would be the first thing to check for here... With the dizzy cap off and no plugs in the head, grab the fan and turn the engine over back and forth, but only very slightly. If you can crank the engine over by a couple of degrees, and not see the rotor arm move, then you've either got slack in your timing chain or dizzy gear(s).

I'd also check to see if your timing mark is true, but thats a little more involved and less likely..

 

[barishiman]

I checked the timing chain for slack and there seems to be none. I also went ahead and loosened the valves a full turn so there is the slightest gap between the rocker and valve. I then hooked up the remote starter and did a cold engine compression check.

1.) 175 psi
2.) 160 psi
3.) 90 psi
4.) 140 psi
5.) 170 psi
6.) 85 psi

Cylinders 3,4,6 are bothering me. I'm assuming I either have a valve or piston ring sticking? This just bothers me because the car ran perfect before the carb blew up.

We got the engine to fire but the battery died. I'm going to get my alternator checked tomorrow and chargre the battery overnight. I'll try to do a hot compression check and punch the numbers for awhile.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Do wet compression also. Good info there.

 

[barishiman]

Today I had a chance to do some tests on the engine.
We checked the vacuum:
on the intake - OK
carb - OK (had the wrong vacuum line hooked up the whole time)
PCV - OK

Then we did a compression check, here are the results:

COLD

1.) 175 psi
2.) 160 psi
3.) 90 psi
4.) 140 psi
5.) 170 psi
6.) 85 psi

Adjusted valves

1.) 175
2.) 160
3.) 90
4.) 150
5.) 170
6.) 90

Warm

1.) 170
2.) 170
3.) 90
4.) 150
5.) 180
6.) 90

Wet

1.) 170
2.) 170
3.) 100
4.) 160
5.) 180
6.) 90

I've narrowed it down to three factors:

Valves sticking (brand new valves)
the pistons (rebuild 6+ years ago)
blown head gasket (brand new)

I've have a hunch that maybe my head bolts are bottoming out, especially around 3 and 6. I tried to tightened the head bolts today, but they wouldn't turn anymore. I'm hoping its just the head gasket and not the pistons.

After we got the car running we heard a lot of loud clattering coming out of the header. It would go away at 1000 RPMs, but get very loud after 1000 RPMs. Anybody have any ideas?

Now I have a timing issue. Right now we reset the timing to 16*. It idles very smooth. Once we put the car in gear the timing drops to 12* and the car bogs down and dies. We then advance the timing to 19* and it idled very fast. We put it in gear and it jolted backwards but stayed at idle. We were pulling 1200-1500 RPMs just to get it in gear ! We then would idle the car down and when we put the car back into park the car would bog down and die! The engine's timing is skipping 4-5*s from park to in gear. What's causing this to happen? Could the dizzy still be installed wrong?

I hope its not the Pertrnoix ignition system. If it is, I think the sledge hammer is coming out because I'm fed up with it. My last resort is a Duraspark II ignition and if that has to come, it won't be for another month or more.

I hope the compression numbers help out. I hope someone has an idea of what is going wrong. Is there something I'm missing here? I've got a bad enough headache from all the exhaust, let alone the engine not functioning properly.

Andrew

 

[addo]

The majority of that lost compression is not due to the bores/pistons. The head is coming off, hopefully to get the thing sorted.

You either have a cracked head, warped block, bottomed out bolts, defective gasket or stuck valves. It is my surmise that the valve timing is rather wrong, and you've possibly bent some valves.

: Back to basics. Did you:
Chase the threads in the block
Check for thread depth
Lay a straightedge on the deck, N-S and diagonally
Check your balancer marks
Feed the cat

Inspect the bores and measure their size (always good to know)
Check the valve operation by depressing / releasing before fitting the head
Dial the cam
Stage the torquings with waiting spells

These things will help you get the engine optimised no matter what state of wear, and keep you informed as to the motor's potential life remaining.

Regards, Adam.

 

[Anonymous]

Man that's tough. Having just been through my own engine ordeal I fell your pain. These guys got me through it though. Adam knows his stuff as you can see in this thread http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ght=#49815 he hit mine square.

 

[MustangSix]

How are you adjusting the valves? Are you certain they are not too tight? Excess preload will cause a valve to stay open and bleed off pressure. Try loosening #3 and #6 rockers until they are very loose and try the compression test again.

If I had to guess, I would say you have a burnt exhaust valve on #6 (low compression, exhaust noise). You possibly have a cracked, worn, or stuck ring on #3 (low dry, high wet compression). If you had a bad head gasket you'd be having some overheating symptoms too.

 

[rbohm]

8) i think #3 has a bad ring along with a burnt valve. since the compression came up, but only 10psi on that cylinder.

 

[barishiman]

Adam:

No to most. I didn't know about all those procedures (novice!) I did torque in stages and no I don't have a cat, though I fed the dog.


Jack:

I'm adjusting the valves by doing the following from my dad's friend who's rebuilt engines all his life:

As the intake valve closes adjust the exhaust valve. As the exhaust valve begins to open, adjust the intake valve. I know this is totally looks wrong from what my Chilton book says, but it seemed to work. I do admit that I did have an excess preload on the valves, so I'll loosen #3 & #6. As for temp, the engine has not overheated.


The responses don't sound well as I planned. I'll do a few more compression tests adjusting the valves on 3,4, & 6. When I adjusted 4, it did go up so its a start. If not, the head is coming off sometime this week and I'll inspect the gasket, deck, threads, etc.... to my best ability. If there are problems with the pistons/piston rings, well I'm screwed. The budget for the engine work is depleted and over spent. I have school coming up and there won't be much work on the car being done. What I thought was an easy upgrade is turning into being my worse nightmare I have ever imagined on this car.

Andrew

 

[BIGREDRASA]

It's part of the learning curve. There is no gain without pain.

 

[addo]

If I'm wrong about the valve timing (hope that I am!), then there is only 4-5 hours and a gasket in the way of repair. The other processes I mentioned are easy to perform/test for. Jack has a point about the #3 ring...

As to adjusting valves: Your method of adjusting one when the other starts to open allows nothing for overlap, the way I see it. The foolproof way is to get #1 on TDC compression. Both #1 rockers are not under pressure, so you can easily see whether you are on the correct TDC.

Adjust 1 Intake, 1 Exhaust, 2 Intake, 3 Exhaust, 4 Intake, 5 Exhaust.

•Rotate the crank 360° Can you see a pattern yet?

Adjust 2 Exhaust, # Intake, 4 Exhaust, 5 Intake, 6 Exhaust, 6 Intake.

That's it. The correct tension is when you can feel slightest drag upon spinning pushrod between the thumb and forefinger, adjust one full turn.

Last comment is about baselining: If people had hard numbers before dismantling, repairs would be cost-effectively directed, more often. When you're done and running well, help me and Don beat people into compliance with this.

 

[MustangSix]

Actually, now that I re-read it, there's not that much chnge from dry to wet on #3. It's probably suffereing the same problem as #6.

Check that valve adjustement again!