Supercharger kit

[xrwagon]

Aussie Speed and Performance are doing shortly a kit for 250 2V heads, i have already seen the manifold with the Weiand 142 supercharger on it, they are doing many brands for this blower unit, for the 2V they are offering a full kit.

Anyones thoughts on this setup on my built 200 bottom end with 2v head? Maybe the manifold can be slightly changed for the alloy inline head. Either way its something new for something old. Need to see the whole kit first and prices.

I am not affiliated with them whatsoever, juts new news i got off FB

 

[xrwagon]

I suppose my first question would be what is the boost limit with good flat top cast pistons? I am not looking at running huge boost or number’s just a fully sic 200. I now have the funds to do it and putting all my ducks in a row, i have missed several set ups i wanted. Done plenty of research and thank the guys here for advice, and looked at many options. There are so many its not funny, at the end of the day i want a reliable power package.

 

[xctasy]

Blowers make pressure by cfm over supply, so a Toyota 150 hp 4AGE 73 cubic inch super charger won't make much power on a 200, but an M112, GMC 371 or Wade Rootes RO30 214 Cube per rev blower will. Enough to kill the block dead if compression isn't dropped to below 7:1

Well, if fuel supply isn't uniform, you'll get preigntion at 20 pounds boost like Lincs 200. Heat soak influences a supercharged engine hugely. Screw bloers make more power by spining harder and faster. Underdriven GMC blowers are a waste of time, but some of the 174 and 242 GMC like blowers are really good for the money.

The normal limit would be 14 pounds with a very low compression ratio of 7;1, and good Duralite pistons. That would give you a 1.68 boost ratio with a 240 cubic inch per rev Rootes type blower. If you were getting 200 hp at 5500r pm with a single 500 Holley and 10:1, and then supercharged it on 7:1, you'd get about 335 hp with dual 500 2-bbls or 390 4-bbls at 5500rpm or so.

The little Eaton M90's are pretty small, limited by the stock distrubutor position, an M112 Eaton fits if you run EDIS. Buick 3800's (the engine used in the early Commode Doors ran) ran a 205 hp M62's option, then an M90 for the 175 KW Supercharged Commodore

Thats 62, 90 or 112 cubic inch per rev.

Little Toyota Ogura SC 12 and SC14's are 1.2 and 1.4 liter per turn, way to small but good enough for 230 hp. 73 or 85 cubes per rev.
Wade RO30's ex Commer truckes are 214 cubes per rev
371's are 213 cubes per rev
471's are 284 cubes per rev
671's are 426 cubes per rev

 

[xrwagon]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... nt_count=1

 

[rbohm]

8) nice kit, i like the penco blower particularly. though i would prefer it to be more remote mounted, say along the left side of the engine so that everything fits under the hood. of course you guys being upside down all the time i guess it would go on the right side of the engine :rolflmao:

 

[mike1157]

I'd imagine that that "kit" is way more than 2k to buy.

The 174 version is what is normally slotted for the SBF here in the states. Not a very popular power adder from what I've seen, even on a V-8. The Weiand advertised power gain is 25-40% over stock. (Stock 5.0's being somewhere in the 200 HP range, that means that the bigger 174 S/C will only net an additional 80 HP.) And that power gain is from a blower capable of supporting an additional 30+ C.I. rated by volume. The little 142 may make 40-50 HP over driven for all it's worth.

This is all w/o ever having the benefit of an aftercooler, as there is just no way to do that when the blowere is sitting right on top of the intake, and the boost generated by a roots blowers is hot. In this ones case, all that heat conductive aluminum sitting directly north of the exhaust. I'd bet the charge temps are well north of 250 degrees.

A standard Centrifugal S/C mounted on the opposite side of the engine, ( or a turbo) would be a much better choice, (and investment) than that one I'd say.

 

[xctasy]

Perfect, you can fuel inject that!

It lookes like the common 6 grove pulley 142 Weiand supercharger used for Aussie Speeds 225 Slant six conversion

Even the little 142 cubic inch per rev units can make a lot of power spining 1.95 times the crank speed with just 6 psi of boost. A stock 350 Chev without port injection, a 288 cam, Votec 164 heads will see a 25 to 40% power and torque boost with just a 142 cube unit. If it starts with 300 hp and 330 lb-ft, it'll end up with about 33% more power and torque than stock if the compression ratio is about 8.5:1. The kits are designed to run out side the detonation threashold by trading off boost by spining twice as fast as a 4/71 GMC. You potentially loose possibly half the power gain, but it then fits under the hood, and works with higher compression. Kit start at 2000 US

“The star of the show is clearly the Weiand
blower…the numbers crunch down to a
stout 455 lb-ft of torque at a reasonable
3,900 rpm, while horsepower clicks in at
445 ponies at 6,000 rpm.”
- Car Craft magazine, June 2006.
Weiand 142 on a 350 SB Chevy, 8.6:1, Vortec 164 cc heads,
288 cam, 750 cfm carb, 1-5/8” headers and 5 lbs. boost.

See Page 80 to 93 for the new special purpose blowers Weiand makes

http://www.weiand.com/data/Catalogs/Superchargers.pdf

Weiand 142/144 Pro-Street . . . . . . . . . .80,81
Weiand 144 GM TBI Trucks . . . . . . . . . .82,83
Weiand 174 Pro-Street . . . . . . . . . . . . .84,85
Weiand 174 Pro-Street (Low Profile) . . . .86,87
Weiand 177 Pro-Street . . . . . . . . . . . . .88-89
Weiand 250 Pro-Street . . . . . . . . . . . . .90-91
Weiand 256 Pro-Street . . . . . . . . . . . . .92-93
Weiand 6-71 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .94-95
Weiand 8-71 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .96-97

 

[xctasy]

Any GMC blower, especially the 4/71, makes more power, but doesn't fit under the hood, and requires a lower compression ratio for more boost. Back in the late 1988, Hot Rod used to find a 68% power boost over a fairly stock carb 350 with a 4-bbl Holley and a beeter than stock 300 Hp early 1970's Z28 style cam. I think it topped out at 495hp mit supercharger, verses 295 hp stock 350 Chev crate engine. The compression ratio was lowered to 7.5:1 for the 4/71 GMC.


A 142 Holley Weiand makes on that application above makes slightly less power than the old 80's crate engine did, on a lot less boost. The heads, cam and compression of the Weiand example engine are a lot more performance orientated than the earlier engines.

Since supercharged engines are highly detonation limited, the research over the last quarter of a century has tended towards the Toyota Twin Cam 73-85 cube Ogura and Buick M62/M90 and Ford M90, M112 and M114 style Eatons, which are all small capacity per rev blowers with screw profiles and spinning them more, so total boost is half what a traditional GMC blower makes. And that seams to allow the suppliers to package them better, and get more reliable street performance than a Jimmy supercharger.

The Holley~Weiand 142/144/177 superchargers are an intermediate step between the little Eatons and bigger GMC's, it makes probably the same power as an Eaton M112, but spins faster and carries less boost. Since boost is what creates detonation then the Weiand is a better street prospect if you can fit it under the hood.

It then comes down to carburation. The Weiand catalogue page 106 to 107 has some really nice carbs, but the problem is that the Holley carb, with air horn, or without, is then mightly close to the hood on a 250 six. So EFI is a definite recommendation

The Classic Inline's head has cast in injector bungs which allow the whole shooting match to be under-hood, and this manifold on any lower compression 250 hp 250 cubic inch or 235 hp 200 cubic inch Classic inline's headed engine with a 264 or 274 cam will easily top out at 90 hp more without any real stress on the engine, that would be 340 to 325 hp depending on capacity. The torque would be sensational. A 250 alloy headed engine easily makes one foot pound per cube, or 250 lb-ft on just a 264 degree cam. Adding a blower like the 142 will add 90 foot pounds instantly, making a 250 behave like a worked 350.

A little 200 sits a lot lower, and it would behave like a very strong 289 or 302 with one of these kits.

For my FAZER 6Bi engines, I use the stock gas-flowed Ford M112 versions on my 250 log headed engines, and get 425 hp with just a 285 degree roller cam, EDIS and six injector 6VHO log adaptor EFI so I can run Aussie Falcon Six EECV. You pick up an M112 for a lot less than 2000 US...
But I have to run less than 7.5:1 to make it survive, and a lot more than 6 psi boost than the Weiand 142, 144 or 174 does to make my 425 hp.

 

[xrwagon]

Nothing a few spacers cant fix, a phenolic one they make for the head to extractors, a heat shield, exhaust wrap, same with carby, composite spacer, this will all help and for intake i was thinking of doing a carb hat to the dizzy side of the motor and air cleaner, that way it will fit under the proposed bonnet. At shows or race i can swap over another carb scoop.

 

[xctasy]

Yep, there is space where you want it with that kit in a 67 Falcon. 2V 250 or Classic Inlines head, bolt on 40 hp. 142 Supercharger, bolt on 90! Just like two part Aralidite, part A has to go with part B.

You've seen how easy it is to do a 2V conversion to an iron Falcon log head. That kit would only make a 40 % boost, but the intake mods to get a log head to 2V specs always makes another 40 to 50 hp on a stock 200 engine. Like I say, if you can get the stock engine normally aspiratated past Crosely's 205 hp at 5200rpm, then you'll easily trip the 300 barrier with a Weiand 142 blower. Since the 2v design normally adds another 40 hp, you'll probably get 330 hp with everything installed. And there are low compression X-flow pistons with 8, 15 and 28 cc bowls to get the desired 8 to 8.5:1 compression ratio with even a 42 cc chamber if the heads been planed down.

Exciting stuff!

 

[xrwagon]

Xctasy would log 250 flat tops give me less than 8.5.1? these should be off the shelf. I was up last night dreaming of this and hoping for 270 rwhp through a little built C4 with the stall i have on hand now should do the trick.

 

[xctasy]

If you use the stock 60 cc 250 head planed down to 52 cc, a 45 thou Appco gasket, and the 7.0 cc dish so called flat tops that ACL used to sell, you'll easily end up with less 8.6:1.

60 cc would make it 7.8:1

You'd get the 270 rwhp only with enough boost, it all depends on the amount of rpm and and psi. An automatic at the rollers always looses 1.5, or 50% of the flywheel figure due to the torque converter, even if it flashes at 3000 rpm, you don't get the 1.26 or 26% loss a T5 does. To make 270 rwhp with a C4 requires about 405 at the flywheel to be sure.

I would have thought that the 142 at 1.95 would be insufficient, the 144 10 rib item with teflon (ptfe) coated scrolls would be better. But then, any thing that feeds a 350 V8 to 445 hp should be okay. I've only ever had Oguras, Wades and GMC's before Eatons, so I know diddly squat about Holley superchargers.

I use a 5th generation Eaton M112 at 2.60 to get 425 hp, and an eight rib Dyco slips.its tried an true tech, and they use two three-lobe rotors, twisted with a 60 degree screw.

The more modern superchargers, like the 80, 110, 140 cid Harrop and Eaton Twin Vortices Series are way ahead, and the 5.4 Ford makes a crap load of power with just 140 cubes per rev of four screw 160 degree twin lobe blower. So maybee the Weiand is just fine for 400 plus.

 

[rbohm]

The Holley~Weiand 142/144/177 superchargers are an intermediate step between the little Eatons and bigger GMC's, it makes probably the same power as an Eaton M112, but spins faster and carries less boost. Since boost is what creates detonation then the Weiand is a better street prospect if you can fit it under the hood.

i am going to correct this a bit, its the combination of boost pressure and excessive heat that cause detonation. and the emphasis is on the excessive heat. you can make 100psi boost pressure, and if you control the heat and fuel mixtures properly, you dont get detonation.

 

[xctasy]

totally agree, but a when supercharger is a heat source, and there is no intercoller, then the more itreally hammers the air in cfm or psi to create power, the more heat it makes. Detonation then follows. Always.

Unless it has an intercooler, it is certain that extra boost will create extra heat and detonation, especially with the Weiands lobe design, and teflon coating it like they do on the 144 isn't going to make a lot of difference.

The supercharger probably likes a lot of cam overlap to avoid detonation, to bleed off heat.

I've seen some pretty mean intercoolers (aftercoolers some still call them), and they help, but the way Aussie Speeds system is mounted, you cant run one, another reason I like ballricks M90 set up, which I've copied with a proper big Ford intercooler, and a much bigger M112 blower and a better pulley system.

 

[xrwagon]

water methanol kit, running on E85, should help.

 

[xctasy]

:fume: :smash: :shockin: :splat: As a detonation supressant, it does an awesome job, but it has to be atomized, and the best atomization is through the top of a carburetor,throttle body or venturi.

The maximum amount is about 50% of the total fuel supply, but that does a great job, so if you've got a carb, its got to supply enough evenly. A nice big 750 3310 would supply or 650 double pumper would then need four window squirter jets with two 16 thou holes, and a means of controlling the supply with 45 psi of line pressure.

 

[gb500]

For my FAZER 6Bi engines, I use the stock gas-flowed Ford M112 versions on my 250 log headed engines, and get 425 hp with just a 285 degree roller cam, EDIS and six injector 6VHO log adaptor EFI so I can run Aussie Falcon Six EECV. You pick up an M112 for a lot less than 2000 US...
But I have to run less than 7.5:1 to make it survive, and a lot more than 6 psi boost than the Weiand 142, 144 or 174 does to make my 425 hp.

do you have any pictures/details /build thread on this engine ?

i see listed in your sig and you talk plural- do you sell them?

 

[xctasy]

Linc200, Balldrick, Does10's, drag200stang, xrwagon, Mad Mike and anyone who does freaky boosted stuff with logs, x-flows, 2v's and Classic In lined headed engine, this ones for you! Set FAZER'S TO STUN CAPTAIN.

Due to the continuing lack of expertise, and also the expense of the Modular engines, I devised the FAZER engines to capitalize on the low end torque and size and weight and packaging advantages of the larger 250 I6 in any of the Mustang/Falcon/Fox/Explorer/Ranger/Bronco & Cortina platforms. The truth is exactly as David Ford said in Australia in 1982 when the EFI 4.1 replaced the 4.9 and 5.8 Cleveland. "There are very few V8 die-hards around, and they will come around in time". Its 31 years on, and he was right!

The Aussie i6 block is narrower at the base than the US 250, and lighter, shallower, and uses more US 200 like components while still taking the best parts of the Aussie cammer sixes. Soon, Ford Oz will have stopped making them altogether, and if I don't rebuild them, no one else will. I've found that the last of the DOHC engines are having a hard time making 1800 hp without taking out blocks, and the FAZER engines are just the first step towards perpetuating the most reliable Ford small six cylinder engine ever made. When 2016 rolls around, Ford US will have killed of the best engine Australia ever made, a follow on from 1981 when the US 250 was dropped, and in 1983 when the US 200 was axed, and 1993 when the I4 2.3 and 2.5 HSC was dropped, and in 1996 when they killed the I6 4.9 EFI. Ford Dearborn can't see an inline 6 future because to them, the numbers with respect to crash safety and economics don't stack up. Well, they are wrong. 4 million small Ford sixes in Aussie and 25 million small Ford sixes in the US is to much junkyard iron to send off the China for smeltering, and I aim to make sure the Ford fans get their heritage back.

I am making them, then planning to sell them, but at 8 grand landed in the US, I haven't sold any yet. At present, I have a 250 Supercharged non EFI engine being made for my 81 Mustang GL. That has been on going since 2001 when I first came on here looking for info on 221 cranked X-flows for a planned DTO special car.

I include either
1. a low mount left hand starter and right hand low mount starter elimination kit for an AOD, AOD-E, OR 4R70W trans, which is controlled as per the standard applications.
2. For race applications, I have a special SGI rated bell housing which is similar to the old FMX item, only its LH starter.
3. Not included in the kit is a modified F150 4.9 164 teeth flexplate, neutral balance, or the 4 stage auto, either AOD, AOD-E or 4R70W.

The stock casing must be either easily drop sawed off for my bellhousing which hooks up FMX style on to the pump bolts for perfect alignment, or the stock casing carefully notched for a special Aussie T3 style low mount left hand starter with my adaptor kit. Either way, it has to be equipped with a commonly available 2350rpm lock-up clutch converter, and it has to come with a Silver Fox valve body modification, and needs to run with a set of no higher taller than 2.73 gears with 25" tires and 2800 pounds, but you can go as low as you like for other applications. My ideal combo is light x-shell Falcon like my old XE. In that thing with a set of 2.77's and 245/60 by 14's it would do flat 12's all day.

There are two types of FAZER, a Supercharged M112, or a Turbo GT3582/1.06,

Each boost device is all left hand mount with the same 25" x 11.5" x 3.5" intercooler which utilizes a tube and fin design. Its tank inlet and outlet diameters are 2", and the same 425 hp at 4800 to 5300 rpm come from each. The block is based on the 1976 to 1992 X-flow block with a variation of the 4200 cc Chevy Trailblazer Melling liners and a 109 thou thick adaptor to fit the iron small log head to the x-flow block. I changed my planned use of solid stainless or better exhast valves, and decided to use huge guide new sodium cooled exhast valves at 1.45", which are cutdown Cessna 152/172 aviation items. The intakes are solid stainless 1.675". The trick to the heads are short turn radius and pocket blending work, and allowing the large valve guides and large margin seats to flow well into a 3.632" bore. The cam is a special modified E303 Mustang roller replacement, designed to suit the more restrictive head cfm's. The special head mods via the 6V-HO log head manifold adapter, roller cam, and small chamber head allow the whole engine to flow in excess of 255 hp normally aspirated from 243 cubic inches.

That gives me a roller cam capable block with enough wall thickness to withstand any abuse, and plateau ground liners to suit the ring, great low compression XR6 Turbo CP Turbo pistons and Ford Corsair rods and rod bearings, proper 12 counterweight EL crank, EWP water pump. The US EEC 5 has provision for the stock Aussie EDIS and turbo or supercharger from 10 to 15 psi boost, and the US EEC 5 guys have done all the hard work cracking the unpacking and flashing criteria of the stock set ups in non V8 applications. The OBDII lockout I use is a separate cyclic program that covers off the other periodic sensor patrols which make fitting 104 pin OBDII systems such a pest to all pre 1983 cars, and is why I don't just use non OBDII Aussie EEC5 systems from XR6 Turbos and XR8's.

As stated, the intake manifold is very special, it runs three 2-bbl Holley carb adapters downstream of the turbo, with six port injectors on VG30E injector rails, and runs a huge 3.54"MAF with a very special intake that uses half of the air cleaner assembly for cleaning air, and the other half to link the 3.54 inch MAF to the throttle body. The 1.5" wastegate controls the boost pressure to 14 pounds. The exhast is a 1981-83 football cat US cast iron 4.25 item with a special adaptor for splitting six 1.5 inch pipes and runs one pipe through the sump, and one pipe under the transmission, and then a 3" high flow cat, a 3.5 inch muffler on the left hand side to a y piece dual exhast over the axle.

A large 3 or 4 core a/c radiator is needed, and the only other difference is that the Bi Supercharged engine runs a 10 rib serpentine belt drive for the power steering, a/c. A 31 pound per hour air pump is used on the Ti Turbo, which is used as an anti lag device on the turbo top it off. The turbo runs a 6 rib belt.

Nothing on this engine has been left to chance, and I'm comfortable that the power out put, the curve and the torque and transmission requirements is what a customer would pay 8 large for. With a Classic Inlines head, this combo would sit in well over the 500 hp mark with the right amount of boost.

All this has been self funded, but hopefully backed up by some local guys who have seen the worth of a well packaged. quality, bullet proof non cross flow iron headed beast. It is able to take either the stock X-flow head or the Classic Inlines item, but I've started with the iron log because its easy to upgrade and is the easiest thing to get 425 hp from.

 

[gb500]

...ok thanks ....

i gleaned you havent sold any

but i am still confused : do these engines exist?

- you talk about one supercharged 250 'being made' since 2001 ?

is it completed ? - and dyno'd?

- as you state hp figures in your sig ?

put up some pics and dyno charts

 

[gb500]

The truth is exactly as David Ford said in Australia in 1982 when the EFI 4.1 replaced the 4.9 and 5.8 Cleveland. "There are very few V8 die-hards around, and they will come around in time". Its 31 years on, and he was right!

.

and yet 9 years later ford australia reintroduced the V8 (5.0l wndsor)cause they were losing sales with only a 4.1 six