synthetic oil

[chicken]

Has anyone used sythetic oil for a long period of time? i was thinking of running it in my 64 wagon, are there any changes as in operating temp of the engine or oil staying cleaner longer, my brother added synthetic to his 70 bronco 302 and has picked up a lifter and crank noise, so he put regular 10w30 like he always has and the noise went away, anything to do with synthetic oil?

 

[MustangSix]

I don't use anything but synthetics in any of my engines, even the mowers. So far, every story I've seen or heard about engines not liking modern synth oil has been unsubstantiated urban legend.

One caveat. If you still adhere to a 3000 mile change interval, you may not get any advantage from synth unless you have a turbocharger. It just doesn't make economic sense unless you plan on using extended drain intervals. For example, Porsche and Jaguar both recommend an oil change every 15000 miles (about once a year under normal driving conditions)

 

[SixFoFalcon]

Synthetic oils typically have better detergent properties than conventionals. Some older engines get very "attached" to their sludge, and when the detergent action breaks it down, the engine starts making noise or weeping oil through seals. It's not because synthetic is "thinner", which is a very common misconception--it's simply because thick, greasy deposits have been broken down and removed. Many times, the seals that leak do so because these deposits have deprived the seals of contact with the oil, and the seals have dried up. More often than not, it is a matter of time before the dry components re-moisturize and begin to seal properly again. In your brother's case, I bet if he had drained the oil and refilled again with synthetic, the noises would have gone away anyway.

I for one still advocate using synthetic whenever practical. Conventional (dino) oils rely heavily on additive packages to maintain their multi-viscosity properties, and it is these additive packages that are the first part of the oil to break down. The result is that the 10W30 doesn't remain a true 10W30 oil very long. A synthetic oil, however, has more base stock and less additives, so as the miles rack up, the oil is not affected as adversely. And the whole time, the detergent properties of the oil are preventing sludge and varnish buildup.

In the long run, synthetic is the clear choice. The increased cost is offset by the extended drain interval. Indeed, synthetic oil is more economical. Since it stays "in grade" longer, it even improves fuel economy and can free up HP. The downfall is that on an old, dirty engine, you may see leakage and hear noise initially as the engine is cleansed and seals are exposed to the direct contact of oil for the first time in a while.

 

[WhitePony]

The only thing I'd be careful about is not using synth in an engine that has run a fossile oil and has built up a sludge. Like SixFoFalcon says, synth has better detergent properties. If large chunks of sludge break loose they can travel and clog oil runnels or the oil pump inlet. That could starve the engine of lubricant in one area or another and damage moving parts. What I do is to run a fossile oil for break in on a new engine, or rebuild, and switch to synth on the second oil change.

 

[chicken]

well,that makes sense to me, the Bronco has around 80,000 miles on it,i'm asking because i'm going to rebuild a 200 for my 64 falcon wagon,and i'd like to use synthetic from the very start, i've heard recomendations to 'break the motor in' with conventional oil,that also makes sense, any opinions?

 

[WhitePony]

I really don't think there's a problem with running synth from the start, except the price tag. After rebuild, I have ALWAYS changed the oil after 100 miles, then again 2K later. THEN I switch to a synth and follow the recomentations from the oil company on change intervals. Following that schedule, it would be a waste to use synth for so short of a time.

 

[Anonymous]

It is not recommended to use synthetic oil for the break-in, it might prevent the rings to seal properly. Use some decent quality mineral oil, and replace it as frequently as possible during the first miles of operation. Running the break-in oil for 500 miles is not advisable. The first oil should be changed after 50 miles or so, and you'll get rid of the metal particles that are the typical consecuence of a freshly built engine.

 

[Anonymous]

It is not recommended to use synthetic oil for the break-in, it might prevent the rings to seal properly.

Depends on machinist's methods and finishes. New Corvettes and Porsches use Mobil 1 from day one. It depends on how the engine was machined and assembled. Those engines may also be test run for a few minutes, but I don't think they get fully broke in.

I did an oil analysis on the "50 mile" break in oil once, and since that I never dump it that soon anymore. I fill with plain 10W-30 (or whatever) and run it for 2000 miles or so from day one. It has never presented any problems.

 

[Anonymous]

What kind of analysis did you perform? I agree with the modern honing method, but the rings still wear against the cylinder walls, pretty much like a file. Using synthetic might prevent that from happening in a proper way. I follow "Mototune" recommendations and also my personal experience. Turn it on, let it heat up, drive it hard! It only rewarded me with cars that were consistently faster than similar counterparts.

 

[wsa111]

I wonder if mercedes,corvettes & vipers really use synthetic from the initial fill from the factory then switch to the synthetics after breakin??

Or are the engines run at the factory for breakin or are modern honing procedurers & rings compatible from the get-go??

Lexus still uses mineral oil & their engines last over 300,000 miles. We suggest to customers if they are going to go the synthetic route to do so at the 5000 mile first oil change.

Synthetic oil is the superior lubricant, not only from as mentioned previously about additives but the oil film will stand more load before it fails.

You only get what you pay for.

I also see dyno tests on a 400 plus engine gaining 10HP just by using synthetic oil.

Ford also uses a synthetic blend oil on all their engines for the past several years. William

 

[addo]

William, would the measurable deterioration of the fossil oil be the main reason Lexus chose it? I mean, it's easier to determine if someone has neglected a service schedule item by oil condition. A way to cover their backsides.

Adam.

 

[Anonymous]

1) What kind of analysis did you perform?
2) Turn it on, let it heat up, drive it hard!

1) Don't remember brand/lab. Metals content was only a little higher than a normal engine so I figured it would be a waste of oil in the future.
2) Agreed. That does seem to work the best.

1) Lexus still uses mineral oil & their engines last over 300,000 miles.
2) I also see dyno tests on a 400 plus engine gaining 10HP just by using synthetic oil.

1) Those are some amazingly well engineered engines. Toyaota is poised to be the world's largest automaker, fo rgood reason. They don't mess around.
2) David Vizard has done a lot of testing. My usual blend is 1 qt Mobil 1 with four qts dino oil as per his testing. That way I am money ahead - - I don't buy pre-mixed synthetic blend becuase they don't state what % the synthetic is. I am willing to bet it is less than 10%, maybe even less than 5% and you pay a whole lot more....

 

[SixFoFalcon]

Toyota hasn't always exercised good judgment w/ engine design in regards to oil. Can you say sludge? :roll: But we'll forgive them for that, since the majority of their products are great quality.

 

[Anonymous]

Toyota hasn't always exercised good judgment w/ engine design in regards to oil. Can you say sludge? :roll:

Hmmmm...... that rings a bell, something about problems with their V6's sludging up????

 

[wsa111]

that rings a bell, something about problems with their V6's sludging up????

Link, the V-6 engines being toyota or lexus will sludge if the DUMB SOB who ownes them does 10,000 & 15,000 mile oil changes.

These V-6 engines would benifit from synthetic oil which would be more forgiving to heat & additive brakedown.

The bottom line is if you change your oil in a toyota or lexus vehicle at 5000 miles as recommended by the factory you will not have a sludge condition.

All the sludged engines we see are the result of lack of resonsible maintenance by the DUMB ASS OWNER. William

 

[wsa111]

Adam, lexus & toyota are backing their products to the hilt, even with obvious owner neglect as far oil changes every 5000 miles.

Yes they have redesigned the valve covers & pcv systems on several models, but the bottom line is the lack of maintence on the owner of the vehicle.

If you have idiots changing oil at 15,000 mile intervals then you will get sludge in an engine, how much does a manufacturer have to do??? William

 

[Anonymous]

A atatement and a question.

I've always heard that oil doesn't ware out, it gets dirty. If that is true, how can synthetic last longer if the dino doesn't ware out.

If the dino gets dirty, why doesn't the synthetic get dirty. I'm sure it gets just as dirty. If it doesn't, where does the dirt (contamination, blow by, etc) go? Since I think that dirt would be in synthetic oil, I would want to change it and get that dirt out of my engine and not let it keep circulating in the engine. If you run synthetic 10,000 miles, wouldn't you have over 3 times the dirt going through you engine than if you changed dino at 3,000 miles?
L.D.

 

[Anonymous]

idj1002 You must not have read this post which will pretty much answer your question so here it is

Synthetic oils typically have better detergent properties than conventionals. Some older engines get very "attached" to their sludge, and when the detergent action breaks it down, the engine starts making noise or weeping oil through seals. It's not because synthetic is "thinner", which is a very common misconception--it's simply because thick, greasy deposits have been broken down and removed. Many times, the seals that leak do so because these deposits have deprived the seals of contact with the oil, and the seals have dried up. More often than not, it is a matter of time before the dry components re-moisturize and begin to seal properly again. In your brother's case, I bet if he had drained the oil and refilled again with synthetic, the noises would have gone away anyway.

I for one still advocate using synthetic whenever practical. Conventional (dino) oils rely heavily on additive packages to maintain their multi-viscosity properties, and it is these additive packages that are the first part of the oil to break down. The result is that the 10W30 doesn't remain a true 10W30 oil very long. A synthetic oil, however, has more base stock and less additives, so as the miles rack up, the oil is not affected as adversely. And the whole time, the detergent properties of the oil are preventing sludge and varnish buildup.

In the long run, synthetic is the clear choice. The increased cost is offset by the extended drain interval. Indeed, synthetic oil is more economical. Since it stays "in grade" longer, it even improves fuel economy and can free up HP. The downfall is that on an old, dirty engine, you may see leakage and hear noise initially as the engine is cleansed and seals are exposed to the direct contact of oil for the first time in a while.

Btw if you didn't get it by reading that oils don't just get dirty they loose there viscocity which is the most important. All oil will get dirty but, it will just change colors and not hinder the performance of the oil itself in most cases, unless it was ran for to long. The thing that is the worst about fossil oils is what he explained above, being that there additives which help them retain a certain viscocity are the first part to "wear out" in oil.

All in all most every newer oil will be substantially better than those of 20 years ago and if you don't feel like going the synthetic route your motor should still last for a long time. Matter in fact i remember my dad telling me that he use to buy recycled oil from the autoparts store and that was all he used on his 1965 galaxy500 with a 289 motor in it (it still lasted a very long time).

 

[Anonymous]

Oh yes I read that, That is what brought up my main question as to what happens to the dirt and that post doesn't address that. Explain how oil where synthetic or not can be good with 10,000 miles and lots of folks are talking 15,000 miles of dirt in it. I for one don't want all that crud going through my engine where is is in dino oil or not.
L.D.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the small ammount of dirt that would be in it (just enough to make it black) would be a non issue. Oil doesn't realy get that dirty imo. Then again every time i change my oil it comes out black.... I have a friend who runs pure mobil 1 full synthetic and has since new he changes the oil every 5000 and it always comes out almost as nice and clear as it went in.