All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
Subscriber
  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
Last edited:
Sort by date Sort by votes
Is there any empirical evidence or racers' anecdotes about the failure rate of OEM 200 Connecting Rods?.

> 200 and 250 pistons with 250's ring land blown off, but never had a problem with rods compared to other failures ( too much fun.) .

.

(BTW: Forged Pistons and boost capable are distinctions ...)


have fun
 
Upvote 1 Downvote
1966Mustang said:
I might know someone at KB-Silv-O-Lite, but who else should I look at? Got any layin' around?
Click to expand...
AFAIK Silv-o-lite only does cast pistons and that is not what you want.

There are two main aluminum alloys for forged pistons. 4032 and 2618

The 4032 alloy forged piston is less expensive than the 2618.
It contains around 12% silicon which controls thermal expansion and gives it good strength at higher temperature.
However the silicon makes the piston more brittle and more susceptible to failure under high impact loads.

The 2618 alloy has very little silicon making it more malleable and will handle high loads better.
Because it has very little silicon it has greater thermal expansion and requires more piston clearance.
It also cost more that the 4032 alloy piston.

The least expensive piston manufacturer for custom pistons of either alloy is Autotec/Racetec and have made many pistons for the Ford sixes
 
Upvote 1 Downvote
Usually my wife makes the lists around here... what till she gets a load of THIS!
MFG/Parts List BOM:
  1. EFI
    1. Holley Sniper - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    2. Other (MSquirt, FiTech, TBI)
    3. Fuel pump? Included?
  2. VI Al Head Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. Forced Induction 16-17lbs
    1. Eaton S/C?
    2. Garrett
  5. (Roller? MFG?) Cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, drivable below 3500.
  6. Roller Rockers
    1. Yella Terra - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/yella-terra-adjustable-1-65-full-roller-rocker-set
  7. Toyota 1JZ ConRod- 4.931" center to center 2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin 1.020" BE Width 1.00 PE width. 22mm pin)
    1. OEM Toyota, or any aftermarket?
  8. Custom forged pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
    1. 4032 vs 2618 alloy
  9. Ignition System @wsa111
    1. DSII and wires?
    2. coilpack near plug?
  10. Timing Gear
    1. Dual - https://www.claysmithcams.com/product-id-jpp-200-drc-dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci/
    2. Stock?
    3. Adjustable?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Custom Forged Pistons List:
Engine Model: Ford 200CID/3.3L
Engine Year: 1978
Fuel: Pump Gas
Use:
HP: 400+
RPM/Max:
Carbureted/Injected: Injected
Blown/Turbo: YES
Lbs of Boost: 15-17
Nitrous: NO

RaceTec / AutoTec

Finished Bore Size:
Stroke:
CID:
Rod Length:
Rod Type:
Rod Small End Width:
Material Thickness Above Pin:
Dome Volume:
CD:
Comp Ration:

Pins with Order: Yes
Pin Diameter:
Pin Length:
Pin Fit To: Or per RaceTec:
Wall Thickness:
Material:
Lock Type: Wire, Spiro, Button, Press

Head Type: VI AL Head
Head Gasket Thickness:
Gasket Bore Size:
Head CC's
Head Gasket Volume:
Block Deck Height:
Piston to Deck Ht. Desired:
Cylinder Bore Length:
Was Cylinder Head Milled:
Flat: Angled:
Valve Diameter Intake:
Valve Diameter Exhaust:

Valve Lift Intake:
Valve Lift Exhaust:
Intake Duration @.050
Exhaust Duration @.050
Lobe Separation:

Top Ring Axial Height:
2nd:
Oil:
Rail Support Y / N

Top Ring Radial Width:
2nd:
Oil:
Rail Support Radial:

Optional Features
Vertical Gas Ports Y / N Qty of Gas Ports ( )
Lateral Gas Ports Y / N Qty of Gas Ports ( )
Pin Fit: Y / N

Crown Coating:
Skirt Coating:
Fuel Coating:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Working down from the top for the items that are not obvious.

Carbureted/Injected: Use "TBI" if you are going to use a Holley Sniper.
Blown/Turbo: Lbs of boost "20 psi turbo"
Use: Street/Strip.
HP 500
RPM/MAX 7000
The RaceTec box get's checked if you are going to order 2618 alloy pistons.
The AutoTec box get's checked for 4032 alloy pistons.
Finish bore size is yet to be determined by your machinist.
Rod Length: 4.931
Rod small end width 1.00"

Dome Volume: This will be a negative number since it is a dish. you won't be able to calculate this number until you get the finished head after port work so you can cc the combustion chambers. You will probably base this number off of a 9:1 compression ratio.

CD: you will need to measure the engine block deck height after it has been machined for straightness.
Then the Compression Distance is the Deck Height -(1/2 the stroke + rod length). It will around 1.300"

Material Thickness Above Pin: is the thickness of the small end of the connecting rod at the top. You will measure that when you get the rods.
Comp Ratio: 9.0
Pins with Order: Yes
Pin Diameter: 22mm
Pin fit To: Check " Per RaceTec
Desired lock type: Wire locks are are easier to install and remove but Spiro Locks hold better. You choose.

You will need the finished block, finished head and camshaft to fill out the next section.
The one thing you can say is Piston to Deck Ht desired: 0

If you purchase the piston rings from RaceTec then you don't fill out the bottom left.

In the bottom right corner under Notes/Special Request: Centered Piston pin. No Valve Reliefs
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
pmuller9 said:
Working down from the top for the items that are not obvious.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the great explanation of that form. I know this is early on and we're doing a lot simultaneously - that in the real-world takes weeks/months.
This is turning out to look like it's going in the right direction :D
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Reviewing your new list:

If you were to supercharge it would be much easier to install a centrifugal supercharger like a Procharger or a Vortech.

The turbochargers that have the widest power bands are the Borg Warner and are better suited for street use.
I'm looking at the Borg Warner S300SX-E 61.4 mm turbocharger as a good fit.

Not OEM Toyota connecting rods.
Only Chrome Moly Steel "H" beam aftermarket.

The camshaft needs to be a Solid Lifter type because of the rpm.
In order to install a roller cam the side of the bock needs to be cut out and a special side cover made. Omit Roller cam from the list.

The camshaft will be a custom order and the intake to exhaust duration relationship will depend strongly on the style of the exhaust header.
As far as companies, Clay Smith has badly missed the mark on a custom cam twice now.
Schneider is good to work with although they seem to grind the LSA more narrow than specified.
Comp and Crower will also grind a custom cam. I like Crower's cams.

The ignition timing is controlled by the Holley Sniper because the timing is referenced to manifold pressure.
You do not use the mechanical advance in the distributor. The distributor's timing must be locked out.

The only way to have "Coil On" or "Coil Near" ignition is with Sequential Port Injection systems.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
@pmuller9 There's a FZJ-80 with 1FZ-FE in the driveway... too many Z's and J's... D8BE, C5DE, ABCD... sorry

powerband said:
Is there any empirical evidence or racers' anecdotes about the failure rate of OEM 200 Connecting Rods?.
Click to expand...
I only found one thread here about someone scrapping a 200 rod... due to other issues. : https://fordsix.com/threads/re-rebuild.73483/

This is the main alt-rod thread: https://fordsix.com/threads/alternative-200-six-connecting-rod.77943/
I'm sure there's good science behind it... some of those rods are 'beautiful'.

Interestingly enough... I can buy qty (30) 1JZ con rods on Alibaba for $950 AND get the FSP logo etched on them! They are not beautiful...

digging through this muck... https://www.supraforums.com/search/411891/?q=1jz+connecting+rods&o=relevance

Rod Options...

$1475.00 https://pauter.com/shop/rods/lexus-toyota-scion/toyota-1jzgte-rods/
$1068.00 https://store.briancrower.com/collections/1jzgte-1/products/bc6318?variant=1166262665241
$750.00 https://store.briancrower.com/collections/1jzgte-1/products/bc6319?variant=1166262698009
$1190.00 TOMEI https://www.suprastore.com/bccoro1jz.html
$2100.00 Carillo https://www.suprastore.com/cahro1jzwica.html
$1400.00 Pauter https://www.suprastore.com/paxbe43coro1.html
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
According to FTF who worked for Ford there is a 2.4 strength factor for the connecting rods of this era.

No one has pushed a rod near as much as this build will. If you lose a rod you lose the entire engine including the possibility of head damage.
By the time you polish the rod beams, shot peen the rod and resize with ARP bolts you have a fair amount tied up in a stock rod.
It doesn't make sense to risk the entire engine over a little more investment in connecting rods and pistons.

6Pc H-Beam Conrods for Toyota Supra JZA70 Mark Crown 1JZ-GTE 1JZ Connecting Rods (maxpeedingrods.com)

The truth is no one has really pushed the 200 six stock rods due to the poor flowing stock heads which do not allow extreme rpm or heavy compression.
Broken ring lands and other failures on cast pistons are not necessary a measure of the stresses a rod is seeing.
The stock rods have an oil spit hole at the big end which is a point of failure at high rpm.
Broken Spit Hole 2.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
  1. EFI
    1. Holley Sniper - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    2. Holley Sniper Pump Retrofit - https://www.cjponyparts.com/holley-...st-340-lph-in-tank-for-returnless-efi/p/FP41/
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem length
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. Borg Warner S300SX-E 61.4 mm turbocharger
  5. Header - The camshaft will be a custom order and the intake to exhaust duration relationship will depend strongly on the style of the exhaust header.
  6. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, drivable below 3500.
    1. Crower
    2. Comp
  7. Roller Rockers
    1. Yella Terra - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/yella-terra-adjustable-1-65-full-roller-rocker-set
  8. BC6319 1JZ ConRod (with ARP Bolts)- https://www.suprastore.com/bcbrcr1jz1jn.html
  9. Custom forged pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
    1. 4032 vs 2618 alloy
  10. Locked DSII System @wsa111
  11. Timing Gear
    1. Dual - https://www.claysmithcams.com/product-id-jpp-200-drc-dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci/
    2. Stock?
    3. Adjustable?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
There is no doubt that the yella terela roller rockers are of a very good.quality. Recently there is also another option by custom made by Rocker Arms Unlimited that might also be worth checking into and they are located in Ca, RAU was the suppler of rebuilt stock 1.5 ratio stock and custom modded 1.6 adjustable stock rocker arm sets for Classic Inlines C. I., not sure if V. I. Matt is also using them but might be.

These New 1.65 Roller Rocker Arms aren’t listed yet on their web page but I have seen a picture or two of them and look to be real nice quality. http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
With the amount of cylinder pressure this engine will see you will need to use an MSD 6AL ignition box.
The distributor triggers the Holley Sniper and the Holley Sniper triggers the MSD box.
The Holley Sniper controls the ignition timing.
Spark plug gaps will stay at .035"
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top