All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

[1966Mustang]

• I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
• The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
• The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
• Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
• Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
• Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
• Let's have some fun with this!

As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...

docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:

1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
   1. Sniper ignition, etc
2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
   1. SI
   2. Manley
4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci

Developing and Can-Do:

1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/

To be Developed or Figured on:

1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
   1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
   2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
   3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
   4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
3. Oil Pump
   1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
   2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
4. Oil Pan
   1. Canton?
   2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Xctasy, yes I remember all of your posts on the roller cams and roller litters but when I tried searching for them couldn’t bring them back up,

 

[CNC-Dude]

I have one of Does10s headers and can say that it would work with the log head but not with the CI head. The turbo and downpipe would hit the intake manifold. I had to have it modified on mine.

BEFORE
View attachment 5112


AFTER:
View attachment 5111

I saw where I was mentioned earlier about header flanges. If you could provide a header gasket to me, I can create a CAD file for you so you can get them waterjet or laser cut.

 

[xctasy]

Its all good bubba22349. That's computing. As encouragement to CNC-Dude and gus91326 all the basic parts are all being made. The Does10s header made for Kelly's 61 was always constrained by first being developed for a Turbo 250 six.

Despite the extra space liberated by being an inline six, the 200 short decks 7.803" deck is 1.666" lower than the 250, and with a 2V head, it hasn't got a prayer of fitting in the stock engine bay with A/C and alternator.

see http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...ged-six-cylinder-ford-mustang//photo-gallery/

 

[65coupei6]

Are you going to use a girdle?

I know you want a turbo. But...

Dropping in an AC bracket and a supercharger is so much less work. I know there is always the turbo vs sc guys.

 

[1966Mustang]

Are you going to use a girdle?

I know you want a turbo. But...

Dropping in an AC bracket and a supercharger is so much less work. I know there is always the turbo vs sc guys.

I'd like to discuss. I have the AC bracket for this 78 block. How does SC change what we're doing above? - Simpler exhaust plumbing is a plus.
I think I've done all the grinding and amateur cleanup I am equipped to do.
Is it time to bring the block and crank to the machine shop?
Does it make any sense to glyptal the innards before bringing it in?

Thanks,

Perry

 

[pmuller9]

Glyptal is done after the machine shop and final cleaning just before final assembly.
You will also want to paint the outside of the block at the same time.

The block is ready to go to the machine shop.
You may want to wait until you have connecting rods before bringing in the crankshaft.
Matt was talking about aftermarket rods?

A supercharger is a lot harder on the engine than a turbocharger because it adds stress to the crankshaft, rods and pistons that a turbo doesn't.
The correct supercharger for this build also cost a lot more than a turbocharger.
For ease of installation you are looking at a centrifugal supercharger which has a narrow power band compared to a turbocharger.

 

[1966Mustang]

Matt was talking about aftermarket rods?

Matt mentioned he had talked to several US manufacturers and has a ballpark of $100/ea but nothing concrete AFAIK.

 

[pmuller9]

I know I said the block is ready for the shop.
The machinist will need the ARP main studs so the main caps can be torqued in place.
The main line bore can then be checked for roundness and straightness.

 

[drag-200stang]

It would be nice to send it in with a deck plate, with the studs for the head, spacers will be needed.
Do not bore or deck more than to make straight.

 

[1966Mustang]

I will order ordered these:

Main Stud Kit:

ARP Main Stud Kit (200ci - 7 main) | Vintage Inlines

Main Stud Kit for 200ci motors with 7 mains. The 42 piece set includes washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine, assuring...

www.vintageinlines.com

VI PN: ARP-200-MS7 ARP PN: 152-5401

Cylinder Head Stud Kit:

ARP Aluminum Head Studs - Full "A" Kit | Vintage Inlines

Head Stud Kit for all 170/200/250ci motors. The 42 piece set includes studs, washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine...

www.vintageinlines.com

VI PN: ARP-250-ACH

 

[65coupei6]

A supercharger is a lot harder on the engine than a turbocharger because it adds stress to the crankshaft, rods and pistons that a turbo doesn't.
The correct supercharger for this build also cost a lot more than a turbocharger.
For ease of installation you are looking at a centrifugal supercharger which has a narrow power band compared to a turbocharger.

I figure a Paxton SN89 would work good with his combo. Just have to turn down the boost and add alcohol injection.

 

[pmuller9]

The Paxton SN89 is a ball drive unit that was designed for 6 lbs of boost.
If you push it much beyond that the ball drive will fail.
The old Paxton ball drive units are JUNK!

This project calls for upwards of 20 lbs of boost at high rpm.
You would be looking at a Vortech or Procharger supercharger.
Then you have to consider the price.

 

[powerband]

... while not advocating for SC inclusion in the 'committee 200' , just a few $ .01's :

One of SC's simple advantage is to run much cooler in proximity to critical engine parts (intake/carb) and 'cleaner' engine bay compared to most turbo' installations (no 'hot side').

I'm only familiar with the Vortech centrifugal superchargers , modern Paxton may be same design. Vortech doesn't require an intercooler for street application boost levels and available in different 'trim' levels from 'street' to 'full race.'

The Vortech SC's fairly universal mounting is easily adapted to most engine configurations and the linear response compared to a spooling turbo makes tuning for FI or carb simpler. With pulley size 'gearing' , the boost can be simply adjusted and controlled for a mild built small block six's limited rev' and breathing capability .

The initial COST factor precludes many builds from considering SC vs turbo , but a quality Mfg. turbo or BB turbo is competitive. SC may offer other cost advantage in not needing exhaust mods, heat shielding or an IC for modest boost levels. I paid @ $ grand for a V2 version with questionable internals from a blown up/melted piston Ford 'Lightning" P/U' clone . The PO's lack of tuning the AFR / ignition timing controls added a very short burst of power ...

vortech for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for vortech at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

have fun

Vortech (street tune) V2 specs are @ 680 HP at 20PSI boost at 50,000RPM Impeller speed.

. .

.

 

[1966Mustang]

Link to Google Sheet for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...

docs.google.com

 

[65coupei6]

How about push rods. Supplied by RAS or Smith Brothers.

Also, take a look at the Aeromotive Stealth Efi fuel tank. It uses the stock location for the lines. Or maybe Tanks Inc.

 

[1966Mustang]

Question on ConRods - If we could get a rod with proper characteristics for the application and not require crank modification, would we be able to avoid having to use custom forged pistons? Are we talking a H-Beam version of the stock ford rods - like if the 1JZ rod had an affair with the Ford Stock Rods and out popped some H-Beam version of a stock rod?

I went through and re-read the alternative rod selection thread...

- Unstruck the above question

 

[bubba22349]

There looks like there are at least 5 or more company's making these Toyota 1JZ H Beam type rods below are the 3 most reasonable priced sets Brian Crower, Molnar, and CXR

Molnar is at the top of price range at just under $700.00 and Crower about $20.00 less, and the CXR are least expensive about $215.00 or so less. The Crower and Molnar rods come with ARP rod bolts too, all offer free shipping i am sure if you called them that one or more of them might machine a custom combo rod however I doubt it would be cheaper than the cost to Mach the 200 Cranks Rod throughs down to fit the Toyota Rod bearings and width if that needed. As far as the pistions you will need the custom forged pistons even if you used a stock 200 con Rod there isn't a good off the shelve forged pistion made for the 200 six. Best of luck

Molar Toyota 1JZ H Beam Rods

Molnar Technologies Connecting Rods w/ ARP2000 rod bolt for Toyota 1JZ | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Molnar Technologies Connecting Rods w/ ARP2000 rod bolt for Toyota 1JZ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Brain Crower 1JZ H Beam Rods

Brian Crower BC6319 H-Beam Rods For Toyota 1JZGTE 1JZ ARP2000 Rod Bolts 4.931" | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Brian Crower BC6319 H-Beam Rods For Toyota 1JZGTE 1JZ ARP2000 Rod Bolts 4.931" at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

CXR 1JZ H Beam Rod lowest cost as of today but doesn't include Rod bolts

CXRACING H-Beam Connecting Rods for Toyota Supra 1JZ-GTE 1JZ-GE 1JZ | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for CXRACING H-Beam Connecting Rods for Toyota Supra 1JZ-GTE 1JZ-GE 1JZ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[1966Mustang]

There looks like there are at least 5 or more company's making these Toyota 1JZ H Beam type rods below are the 3 most reasonable priced sets Brian Crower, Molnar, and CXR

The option being recommending now is going with the 1JZ rods and custom forged pistons from racetec.

I spoke with Tom Molnar at molnarengineering.com - he said he can make whatever is needed. So, what would be the ideal for this application?

1. What would the 'right' sized turbo rod be?
2. Is there an off-the-shelf piston for the application?

Thanks!

We are here... > Waiting on ARP Main and Head bolts to be delivered.

 

[Jmustang_65]

I seen these were recommended in the 221 Stroker kit were Chevy 334 V8 piston (3.736" Bore/1.1330 CH). The SBC 334 piston comes in forged aluminum (ICON IC835-STD) with 2 valve reliefs measuring 10cc. Price on summit is $541. Custom pistons might be around $550 from what I've seen. So that would be almost the same amount.

ICON IC835.STD ICON Premium Forged Pistons | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - ICON Premium Forged Pistons with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Pistons at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

A minor problem with using the SB Chevy V8 piston is the pin diameter is 0.927", whereas the 1JZ rod has a 22mm small end (0.866"), so that would have to be addressed.

 

[pmuller9]

The rod big end can be for the Ford 2.123" crank journal or the SBC 2.100" journal since most cranks need to be turned.
Keep the Ford .912" piston pin.

If the rod length .100" longer than stock at 4.815" that would put the piston pin height at 1.410" leaving plenty of room for a thick upper ring land and a dish for low compression.
The dish volume will be at least 10cc to get a 9:1 compression ratio.