All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
Subscriber
  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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So, something like this in a H-Beam configuration?

A) Center to Center: 4.815"
B) Big End Bore: 2.225"
C) Pin End Bore: .9122"
D) Big End Width: .992"
E) Pin End Width: 1.00"

Just for referencing above A-E (this is not an h-beam):
rod-img.jpg
 
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It would be nice if we could get Fast64ranchero in on this because he has put the 1JZ H beam rods in a 200...The rod to cam is tight on stock rods and the bottom of the cylinder wall...I like the 2.100 sbc bearing because of more bearing size choices like .001 over and under , to get your clearance what you want., if It is off some... But the larger big end in a H rod may cause clearance problems , not sure...the only thing that do not like about the 1JZ rod is the smaller crank pin but it may be stronger with ability to grind a larger fillet on the journal..
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong.
The stock rod has the least amount of clearance at the head of the rod bolt.

The aftermarket rods bolt from the cap side and do not protrude outside the rod body near the cam giving more clearance at that point.
Since the rod bolt is not involved you can clearance the rod at that point. I have done it on other engines.
All the rods would need equal treatment to keep them all balanced.
 
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pmuller9 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The stock rod has the least amount of clearance at the head of the rod bolt.

The aftermarket rods bolt from the cap side and do not protrude outside the rod body near the cam giving more clearance at that point.
Since the rod bolt is not involved you can clearance the rod at that point. I have done it on other engines.
All the rods would need equal treatment to keep them all balanced.
Click to expand...
Yes at the rod bolt head and up from there..I have also clearanced the rod but I have been told by the mfg. not to;)..As you know it is a lot of work and if hired out , costly , it would nice not to have to..The engine started out with a 2.5 stroke ended up at 3.126 , the cylinder is short and the piston comes out of the bore more that what is good ..that is why I would like to see maybe .200 or something like that longer than stock ,should still have room a thick deck and metric rings. Walt will have some good insight into this.
 
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Do you want a picture/measurement of the stock rod on the crank in the block with a piston?

Are we saying rod length should be 4.915" (+.200 over stock) ?

1JZ are 4.931
 
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1965 to 1969 200 stock short block
Bore Spacing Centerline 4.08
Main Center Line to Top of Deck 7.808
Crankshaft Stroke 3.126
Main Dia. 2.2486
Rod Throw Dia. 2.1236
Bore 3.680
Rod Length 4.715
Piston Compression Height 1.511
Piston Dish 6.5 CC
Piston to Block Deck .019 down the hole
Head Combuston Chamber 52 CC
Steel Shim Head Gasket .022
Stock Compression Ratio 8.7 to 1

You found the Rod Lenght of those 1JZ 4.931 that's about a perfect lenght and gives a better Rod ratio too. Did you find any other specs on those rods such as the external big end measurement? If you assembled your short block less the rings so you could measure the clearance from the Rod to camshaft that might be helpful. Using a Chevy bearing size of 2.100 or other could give you more room for clearance between the cam plus also have a change in bearing speed too. I had to do this back when I was building my 427 Ford SOHC the Rod bearings wouldn't last at high RPM so I used a custom rod with 392 Chrysler Hemi size Rod bearings and stock Ford lenght and piston pin worked great.

pmuller, does a Turbo spec'ed engine build like a Tight Quench with a Zero Decked short block?
 
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So - have we settled somewhere around 4.815 or 4.915 on rod length? - which?
and are we waiting to hear about potential clearance issues?

And, does this solve a off-the-shelf available piston selection problem?
 
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The piston will have to be custom made , as it should be..At this point I think that we are waiting for Walt's hands on experience..What was the price and wait time of the what ever you want rod ,same as the off the shelf rod?
 
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drag-200stang said:
The piston will have to be custom made , as it should be..At this point I think that we are waiting for Walt's hands on experience..What was the price and wait time of the what ever you want rod ,same as the off the shelf rod?
Click to expand...


Justa waitin on vendors to get back to me:
UPDATE...
Eagle says: "Nope, not set up to do small runs"

FFWD/Vader: Lots of good advice. Theirs are aluminum rods, and would require custom tooling...
 
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The Std. Toyota 1JZ Rod bearing is 2.0472 should be good on the Rod bearing size. The early SBC to 1969 had a 2.000 Rod bearing and they have also been runing the Honda 1.888 size Rod bearings in them for a long time. The Piston Pin is .8660 not that far from the Ford sized pin of .912? With the stock 1JZ Rod lenght of 4.931 you could have a Piston Compression Height of 1.385 is that enough to get the ring pack set up right? This puts the Piston at .019 down the hole and quench distance of .069 with the FelPro comp. head gasket, dose that work?
 
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On my engines, I use the GM 4200 liner LL8 Vortec 4200, which is 3.660" and hone out to 3.662 and use +30 thou over size CP forged pistons for the Barra 4 liter 242. These are being downgraded to US made 6P1139 +30 Slivolites now, if they are what they say they are.

silvolite-l1600_6P1139+30again.jpg
.

This is a 1.1629" compression height piston which works best with a custom Lima 2300 style 5.09" long 302 Ford hybrid H section rod. You then use a nice this MLS or composite gasket

Be aware that Ford was in a process of major downgrades in the late sixes.
figure-200_cid_Ford_SIX_EXAMPLEFROM660mercuray_Capriturbo4_cyl.jpg
 
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This is what I am telling con rod people...

Center to Center: 4.915" (stock is 4.715")
Big End Bore: 2.225" (big end bore for SBC 2.100" journal)
Pin End Bore: .912" (same as stock )
Big End Width: .992" (same as stock)
Pin End Width: 1.00" (same as stock)

Do we need to have a Zoom meeting on this to set me straight? I'm still waiting on ARP bolts anyway... Oh, and the main part of this build like everyone else in line. So there's that.

Right on cue...
 
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Received this reply from Don at pauter.com :
Thanks for the link to your forum I look forward to looking it over …. We’re pretty familiar with these older inline six turbo projects through most have been for 230/250 GM, we’ve also done quite a few Ford, Mopar and Jeep six’s as well, in fact I’ve been running a (1966) 230 C.I. Sniper/Garrett (12-14 psi) combo in a 55 Chevy myself for about 3 yrs. Though I have never put it on a Dyno I’d est. 325-350 HP, runs every bit as good as most warmed up 350 cookie cutter Tri 5’s I’ve been in.

Getting back to your request…. I don’t recall making the particular rod you described but that is of no concern, we have programs we can apply to meet your needs in terms of power/RPM and dimensional parameters listed . I may need a few more details to finalize an order but this is by no means an uncommon project.
Click to expand...

...P/N: FSP200500FTW
 
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A 4.915" rod length yields a piston with around a 1.300" pin height which should work well.
I've use a 1.200" pin height on the 300 six for the 240 rods without any long term problems.

Can someone please measure the length of the cylinders on the 200 block.
Thanks
 
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