timing advance

hasa68mustang

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ok well I am getting close to getting the car done but I was wondering what I can do about limiting the timing advance? on of the Ausssie people said something about a rivit or a plate welded on to stop, but how do you know where 28* is? Thanks, Tommy
 
First up, your looking to end up with the right ignition graph. Here is one for a bike engine.

350ypvs.gif



Two ways. The best is to have it done on a Sun distributor dyno, where the whole advance curve can be checked and modified by a specailist. The ideal distributor is something with the overrun vac retard used on some mid 70's Fords, especially import 2.6/2.8 V6's and maybee some of the early US Durasparks had it.

They allow you to tailor make a normal conservative turbo curve under 100% load, and then go to large advance under part throttle.


Key curve for an 8:1 compression engine with 9 psi boost on the gage under wide open throttle load should be

idle, 15 (no load)
1000, 18 (advance sees a huge drop in vacum)
1500, 20
2000, 22
2500, 28
3000, 28
3500, 28
4000, 28


Under no load (when the vacum retard sees 20 " hg or -10 psi on the gage when off throttle into corners, or coasting to lights, or pumping the brakes),
idle, 15
1000, 18
1500, 24
2000, 30
2500, 34
3000, 40
3500, 40
4000, 40

This gives you great economy part throttle (lots of advance before detonation always is), and then really safe (detonation free) performance wide open throttle.




if you don'y have the 300 bucks to get one tailormade, then just do like Does10's has done, sacrifice a little fuel economy, and but make up a real safe fixed distributor. First up, you need to interigate the existing distrubutor for the current advance curve.



Find the TDC and 6 and 12 BDC marks, and locate new 28 and 30 and 32 and 34, 36 degree marks. You do this by grabbing a $1 360 degree protractor, and lay it out over a spare crank pully and front cover. An old engine is best. Identify TDC, 6 BTDC , and 12 BTDC on it, then find where 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 38 BTDC are. Then clean the surface with prepsol, and lay out either

a) retro reflective tape 1/8 or 3mm wide on it (from signs companies or graphic artists).


or b) just painting 'whiteout' works best. Place a big ***8 for 38, or **8 for 28 on the white with a fine tip black felt pen. Transfer this to the pully on your car.

There are aftermarket kits, but I've not used them

You can see them real good with a timing light at night.


Stock advance curve can then be ploted by reving your engine in neutral with the advance curved hooked up at

idle,
1000,
1500,
2000,
2500,
3000,
3500,
4000 rpm.
Do it twice to be sure the ignition is in good shape.

Un hook the advance, and try it at
idle,
1000,
1500,
2000,
2500,
3000,
3500,
4000 rpm

Plot it.

Again, the ideal advance curve is to have heaps of initial timing, up to 18 to 25 degrees will start if your compression is 7:1, but more likely 15 to 18 degrees will be fine for 8:1.

The key is to use stiffer springs from the Ford supplier to bring it back to the

idle, 15 (no load)
1000, 18 (advance sees a huge drop in vacum)
1500, 20
2000, 22
2500, 28
3000, 28
3500, 28
4000, 28
curve I've suggested


Rekit the mechanical advance. Stock ones after many years can be quite unreliable. Bush wear (no plotical jokes please) and siezed of galling plates and springs can create spark scatter problems. With the the vac advance removed and the hole plugged with a plate or rtv, you'd be pretty close with a good distirbutor with stock springs, and by setting up 15 to 18 degrees static. The key is to have the advance come in hard and fast, with full boost at 2500 rpm and 28 degrees.

That should avoid the big bang, and is the single esiest way to save cash.

Placing a restricton on the stock ignition bsaeplate can do just as good a job, but you really have to prove you've got close to the ideal curve before and after you've done the work on it.

Remember, everyone else talk about other kinds of BS, but the only thing yo've got to get right is the amount of advance at each rpm. This one!

Readouts.gif





If you ignition is safe, you engine is safe.
 
holy moly... ya neither my dad or I have a distributer dyno/tester, he does have a massive older sun machine which as far was we know doesnt have it... ok now I am going to finish reading your post and try to make sense of it... :lol:
 
xecute®™© he he":1gtuk4e9 said:
First up, your looking to end up with the right ignition graph. Here is one for a bike engine.

350ypvs.gif



Two ways. The best is to have it done on a Sun distributor dyno, where the whole advance curve can be checked and modified by a specailist. The ideal distributor is something with the overrun vac retard used on some mid 70's Fords, especially import 2.6/2.8 V6's and maybee some of the early US Durasparks had it.

They allow you to tailor make a normal conservative turbo curve under 100% load, and then go to large advance under part throttle.


Key curve for an 8:1 compression engine with 9 psi boost on the gage under wide open throttle load should be

idle, 15 (no load)
1000, 18 (advance sees a huge drop in vacum)
1500, 20
2000, 22
2500, 28
3000, 28
3500, 28
4000, 28


Under no load (when the vacum retard sees 20 " hg or -10 psi on the gage when off throttle into corners, or coasting to lights, or pumping the brakes),
idle, 15
1000, 18
1500, 24
2000, 30
2500, 34
3000, 40
3500, 40
4000, 40

This gives you great economy part throttle (lots of advance before detonation always is), and then really safe (detonation free) performance wide open throttle.




if you don'y have the 300 bucks to get one tailormade, then just do like Does10's has done, sacrifice a little fuel economy, and but make up a real safe fixed distributor. First up, you need to interigate the existing distrubutor for the current advance curve.



Find the TDC and 6 and 12 BDC marks, and locate new 28 and 30 and 32 and 34, 36 degree marks. You do this by grabbing a $1 360 degree protractor, and lay it out over a spare crank pully and front cover. An old engine is best. Identify TDC, 6 BTDC , and 12 BTDC on it, then find where 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, and 38 BTDC are. Then clean the surface with prepsol, and lay out either

a) retro reflective tape 1/8 or 3mm wide on it (from signs companies or graphic artists).


or b) just painting 'whiteout' works best. Place a big ***8 for 38, or **8 for 28 on the white with a fine tip black felt pen. Transfer this to the pully on your car.

There are aftermarket kits, but I've not used them

You can see them real good with a timing light at night.


Stock advance curve can then be ploted by reving your engine in neutral with the advance curved hooked up at

idle,
1000,
1500,
2000,
2500,
3000,
3500,
4000 rpm.
Do it twice to be sure the ignition is in good shape.

Un hook the advance, and try it at
idle,
1000,
1500,
2000,
2500,
3000,
3500,
4000 rpm

Plot it.

Again, the ideal advance curve is to have heaps of initial timing, up to 18 to 25 degrees will start if your compression is 7:1, but more likely 15 to 18 degrees will be fine for 8:1.

The key is to use stiffer springs from the Ford supplier to bring it back to the

idle, 15 (no load)
1000, 18 (advance sees a huge drop in vacum)
1500, 20
2000, 22
2500, 28
3000, 28
3500, 28
4000, 28
curve I've suggested


Rekit the mechanical advance. Stock ones after many years can be quite unreliable. Bush wear (no plotical jokes please) and siezed of galling plates and springs can create spark scatter problems. With the the vac advance removed and the hole plugged with a plate or rtv, you'd be pretty close with a good distirbutor with stock springs, and by setting up 15 to 18 degrees static. The key is to have the advance come in hard and fast, with full boost at 2500 rpm and 28 degrees.

That should avoid the big bang, and is the single esiest way to save cash.

Placing a restricton on the stock ignition bsaeplate can do just as good a job, but you really have to prove you've got close to the ideal curve before and after you've done the work on it.

Remember, everyone else talk about other kinds of BS, but the only thing yo've got to get right is the amount of advance at each rpm. This one!

Readouts.gif





If you ignition is safe, you engine is safe.

This is what I plan to do, I have one of those retard distributors. Set the initial/static timing high (b/tw 16 - 20 degrees) and then come on with the centrifical adv (advances 20*) by 2500 rpm. When the retard takes over (vacuum from the port side of the carb which drop timing @ 8-10 degrees) this should get me down to @ 28* at WOT. Sounds like a plan. Later,

Kirk
 
Xecute is dead nuts on!
Our setup works fine but it could be improved upon.
All I did was to weld up the slot that the Duraspark mech. adv. uses. This limited the amount of total adv. to 10*. So we've got it set up currently at 17* initial, and 27* total.
It's a very simple way of limiting the amount of advance swing so it will be safe. We're leaving a lot fuel economy on the table as a result. I think now we're getting around 15mpg or so.
This setup does work fine for the street. It's just not optimium.

If I recall FSPP is coming out with a new dizzy that will have electrically adj. curves. This will be a big help to us!
Later,
Will
 
Xecute is dead nuts on!
Our setup works fine but it could be improved upon.
All I did was to weld up the slot that the Duraspark mech. adv. uses. This limited the amount of total adv. to 10*. So we've got it set up currently at 17* initial, and 27* total.
It's a very simple way of limiting the amount of advance swing so it will be safe. We're leaving a lot fuel economy on the table as a result. I think now we're getting around 15mpg or so.
This setup does work fine for the street. It's just not optimium.

If I recall FSPP is coming out with a new dizzy that will have electrically adj. curves. This will be a big help to us!
Later,
Will
 
Like Will's setup, mine has an extra step with the retard mechanism, so I do not have to limited my centrifcal adv by half because the retarding does that for me. Later.

Kirk
 
There are two different styles of springs on the advance mechanism. I took the heavy one off and it's perfect.
 
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