Tuning ideas needed /200
- Thread starter 80Stang
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80Stang
Well-known member
Slow progress but it's getting better.
Most of the "choking" problem was due to choke set too rich. What did you say about something very tiny thing making a lot of the problem... well, most, the problem is still there but it is not so bad at all. I can do the traffic lights and slow turns with ease now.
So some notes on it: seems like the engine gets "drunk" if I try to depart with so slow rpms that vacuum drops to 5 or below. Then it starts running rough and there is rich smoke coming out the pipe. Runs perfect as soon as I get the revs a little higher, kind of flush it with higher air speed... The low vacuum triggers the problem.
Everything else is now good, just the jets are a little bit too small as I turned back to 54s, which have some lean conditions at cruising speeds but not so bad as before. Two more things that made part of the recent progress were adjustments to timing. I didn't measure the curve so I could draw a line on paper but I measured how the centrifugals works; it gives 10 degrees pretty soon and after that 7 more, totalling around 17. Disconnected the vacuum advance and most amazing is that I have the basic advance now at 28 (!), and it still starts like a new car and there is no detonation anytime....I suspect the timing light of course, have to check its readings.
Checked the A/F meter, it works fine. I suspect the oxygen sensor, that I'll change today for a new one.
The quest goes on.
Most of the "choking" problem was due to choke set too rich. What did you say about something very tiny thing making a lot of the problem... well, most, the problem is still there but it is not so bad at all. I can do the traffic lights and slow turns with ease now.
So some notes on it: seems like the engine gets "drunk" if I try to depart with so slow rpms that vacuum drops to 5 or below. Then it starts running rough and there is rich smoke coming out the pipe. Runs perfect as soon as I get the revs a little higher, kind of flush it with higher air speed... The low vacuum triggers the problem.
Everything else is now good, just the jets are a little bit too small as I turned back to 54s, which have some lean conditions at cruising speeds but not so bad as before. Two more things that made part of the recent progress were adjustments to timing. I didn't measure the curve so I could draw a line on paper but I measured how the centrifugals works; it gives 10 degrees pretty soon and after that 7 more, totalling around 17. Disconnected the vacuum advance and most amazing is that I have the basic advance now at 28 (!), and it still starts like a new car and there is no detonation anytime....I suspect the timing light of course, have to check its readings.
Checked the A/F meter, it works fine. I suspect the oxygen sensor, that I'll change today for a new one.
The quest goes on.
It's now starting to sound like the power valve is opening too soon, and giving you a rich mixture, which drops the vacuum, which richens the mixture, which drops the vacuum,.......... 
You said you have a bunch of power valves; have you changed to one with a lower #?
You said you have a bunch of power valves; have you changed to one with a lower #?
Teppo, you have tried every under the sun. What is your fuel pressure??
David has vast experience with the ford carb.
If you want to go to the holley let me know?
You keep riching the fuel mixture with very little results. Just check the fuel pressure to be sure. If you stick with the ford carb give david a shout.
however if you want go with the holley let me know.
David & his brother have run the ford carburetor in many applications, thus they can tell you if your jetting is incorrect or do you have a fuel pressure problem.William
David has vast experience with the ford carb.
If you want to go to the holley let me know?
You keep riching the fuel mixture with very little results. Just check the fuel pressure to be sure. If you stick with the ford carb give david a shout.
however if you want go with the holley let me know.
David & his brother have run the ford carburetor in many applications, thus they can tell you if your jetting is incorrect or do you have a fuel pressure problem.William
80Stang
Well-known member
BIGREDRASA;
power valve is new and it seems to open at around 8 now as the main jets are too small and I have the lean condition right above it; it is easy to see how the AF meter bangs from "out of scale/lean side" to stoich/almost rich right at 8 inHG.
I haven't had time to try the holley 1-stage power valves yet; they are 6.5, 4.5 and 3.5 if I remember right. I think I should get the main jets pretty perfect first: 54 is too little, 59 is too big and I don't have any jets available in between. Today I'll give it a try and test a mixed pair, one 54 and one 59.
If I try a lower PV first I think it just makes the lean valley wider with too little main jets. Oh but it could help with the stumbling if the main jets were right...
WSA111: don't know what is the fuel pressure. I could try another fuel pump as I have a classic 60's fuel pump w/integral filter rebuilt on the shelf, just need some plumbing to do as it attached in a different way to the hoses.
I'm pretty ready to give the Holley 350 a try and see how it goes. At least there are plenty of jets around so it is no issue to get them right in no time.
BTW, changed the oxygen sensor yesterday and seems like I can pretty much trust both of them as they show similar readings; now I can say that this setup won't go to rich area in the AF meter what ever I do; well, I saw the first rich light on once or twice when I tested the 68 jets... maybe it gets fresh air from a gasket surface before the sensor.
power valve is new and it seems to open at around 8 now as the main jets are too small and I have the lean condition right above it; it is easy to see how the AF meter bangs from "out of scale/lean side" to stoich/almost rich right at 8 inHG.
I haven't had time to try the holley 1-stage power valves yet; they are 6.5, 4.5 and 3.5 if I remember right. I think I should get the main jets pretty perfect first: 54 is too little, 59 is too big and I don't have any jets available in between. Today I'll give it a try and test a mixed pair, one 54 and one 59.
If I try a lower PV first I think it just makes the lean valley wider with too little main jets. Oh but it could help with the stumbling if the main jets were right...
WSA111: don't know what is the fuel pressure. I could try another fuel pump as I have a classic 60's fuel pump w/integral filter rebuilt on the shelf, just need some plumbing to do as it attached in a different way to the hoses.
I'm pretty ready to give the Holley 350 a try and see how it goes. At least there are plenty of jets around so it is no issue to get them right in no time.
BTW, changed the oxygen sensor yesterday and seems like I can pretty much trust both of them as they show similar readings; now I can say that this setup won't go to rich area in the AF meter what ever I do; well, I saw the first rich light on once or twice when I tested the 68 jets... maybe it gets fresh air from a gasket surface before the sensor.
Howdy Teppo and All:
I'm sure enjoying your saga. You've got some more good suggestions to follow up on. As Tony said- be sure to verify pump pressure 1st.
Given your vacuum readings, I'd be inclined to use a 5.5 PV. Also verify the size of the fuel orifaces to the PV channels. Have you checked vacuum readings after altering the initial timing?
Also the transition from idle to acceleration to cruise seems to be the problem areas. That causes me to think that the solution will be a combination like a richer low speed idle air screw setting, a lower PV number, the correct main jet and float setting.
The heartache of the 2100 is lack of availability of jets, a less refined idle circuitry and PV, but I don't see why the mixed pair of main jets won't work. The log plenum should help to even out to A/F mixture. Watch for fuel distribution mismatches by reading your plugs.
Tuning a 2100 is very similar to a 2300. The difference is more tuning options and availability of parts with a Holley- which are more specific and exact. Setting the float, for example, is as easy as loosening a set nut and turning a screw- no disassembly at all. Tuneability of the Holley is a big plus!
With the performance advantage of the 2300 over a 1.14, plus the tuneability, I'm wondering why you haven't gone to the Holley already. About the only advantage of the 2100, in your case, might be the annular discharge venturi booster, which improve fuel atomization and distribution.
Adios, David
I'm sure enjoying your saga. You've got some more good suggestions to follow up on. As Tony said- be sure to verify pump pressure 1st.
Given your vacuum readings, I'd be inclined to use a 5.5 PV. Also verify the size of the fuel orifaces to the PV channels. Have you checked vacuum readings after altering the initial timing?
Also the transition from idle to acceleration to cruise seems to be the problem areas. That causes me to think that the solution will be a combination like a richer low speed idle air screw setting, a lower PV number, the correct main jet and float setting.
The heartache of the 2100 is lack of availability of jets, a less refined idle circuitry and PV, but I don't see why the mixed pair of main jets won't work. The log plenum should help to even out to A/F mixture. Watch for fuel distribution mismatches by reading your plugs.
Tuning a 2100 is very similar to a 2300. The difference is more tuning options and availability of parts with a Holley- which are more specific and exact. Setting the float, for example, is as easy as loosening a set nut and turning a screw- no disassembly at all. Tuneability of the Holley is a big plus!
With the performance advantage of the 2300 over a 1.14, plus the tuneability, I'm wondering why you haven't gone to the Holley already. About the only advantage of the 2100, in your case, might be the annular discharge venturi booster, which improve fuel atomization and distribution.
Adios, David
Not positive, but it looks like these guys may sell 2100 jets:
http://www.carburetion.com/ford2v.htm
80Stang
Well-known member
One fact: the power valve is 8.5, it reads on it...I have another Autolite PV that is 7.5, might try that later.
I changed one jet to 59 so now there is a mixed pair with one 54 and one 59. I also changed the power valve to Holley 6.5. I went into the carb removal because I thought it was time to check the head bolt torgues now when the engine is "tested" for some 800 miles so I had two jobs done in the same 90 minute slot.
Short test drive did not show anything hazardous, I think it idles the smoothest so far and drives ok. Idle mix screws are 3/4 round out, AF ratio reads like it did before, just a tad richer. There seemed to be a lean range right before the PV opened, so I need to follow the meter carefully tomorrow - 35 miles to work and 35 back, that's gonna tell how it goes.
The stalling is still there; I'm really starting to believe this 2100 unit is not for me, but I don't give up - have another rebuild kit incoming and then I'll see which will go in, the other 1.14 or the 1.21. Just to check if the engine likes Autolites or not...but before that test I have already tested the Holley.
Thanks for living this thru with me. I'll amuse you probably tomorrow with a sound clip and maybe an acceleration video that I can try to catch with my digital camera.
Btw, dyno is on 8th of June. Better get this rocking before that =;?)
I changed one jet to 59 so now there is a mixed pair with one 54 and one 59. I also changed the power valve to Holley 6.5. I went into the carb removal because I thought it was time to check the head bolt torgues now when the engine is "tested" for some 800 miles so I had two jobs done in the same 90 minute slot.
Short test drive did not show anything hazardous, I think it idles the smoothest so far and drives ok. Idle mix screws are 3/4 round out, AF ratio reads like it did before, just a tad richer. There seemed to be a lean range right before the PV opened, so I need to follow the meter carefully tomorrow - 35 miles to work and 35 back, that's gonna tell how it goes.
The stalling is still there; I'm really starting to believe this 2100 unit is not for me, but I don't give up - have another rebuild kit incoming and then I'll see which will go in, the other 1.14 or the 1.21. Just to check if the engine likes Autolites or not...but before that test I have already tested the Holley.
Thanks for living this thru with me. I'll amuse you probably tomorrow with a sound clip and maybe an acceleration video that I can try to catch with my digital camera.
Btw, dyno is on 8th of June. Better get this rocking before that =;?)
80Stang
Well-known member
Seems to work pretty good now. I think a pair of 57s would be very close to optimum. Lower PV may keep MPG up, so I'll stick to this setup for a while. The stall is still there but doesn't bother much as I know how to avoid it, and with current 54/59 jets there are some very short lean areas between 6 and 10 inHG.
Plugged el cheapo mic into a laptop and got some sounds into a file, enjoy (sorry for distortion, poor mic, large file, and the fact that the engine revs to 6K):
www.ponikorjaamo.com/ti80/Jru9_sounds.wav (about 2.5MB)
Even worse, there is an acceleration AVI (on 2nd gear from 2000+ rpm to 5000+, sorry I need to change gears with the same hand I'm holding the camera with. If you take note on the speedo it reads about 20% lower than what the speed is in reality, starting around 25MPH and the readings are 10MPH apart):
www.ponikorjaamo.com/ti80/Jru9_acceleration.avi (about 3.5MB)
I promised to amuse you. I try to get better quality stuff when I have more time.
Plugged el cheapo mic into a laptop and got some sounds into a file, enjoy (sorry for distortion, poor mic, large file, and the fact that the engine revs to 6K):
www.ponikorjaamo.com/ti80/Jru9_sounds.wav (about 2.5MB)
Even worse, there is an acceleration AVI (on 2nd gear from 2000+ rpm to 5000+, sorry I need to change gears with the same hand I'm holding the camera with. If you take note on the speedo it reads about 20% lower than what the speed is in reality, starting around 25MPH and the readings are 10MPH apart):
www.ponikorjaamo.com/ti80/Jru9_acceleration.avi (about 3.5MB)
I promised to amuse you. I try to get better quality stuff when I have more time.
80Stang":12x8hlgw said:
IIRC, the lower the # of the power valve, the lower the vacuum needs to drop before the circuit is enriched. It sounds like your current PV was right on the money, as the rich condition came on at the same Hg. # as the PV. If I were you, I would go with the lower # PV and slightly richer jets, and see what happens.
A
Anonymous
Guest
God evening 80stang,
How was your trip? I’m finally at home and sitting here with a Miller Genuine Draft and reading about your struggle with that Autolite carb. Don’t miss judge me, I like the Autolite´s but I have a suggestion. You sad you have a FSPP headers with ceramic coating, single outlet. Howe about to swap it for a new Holley 500cfm, (Holley remanufactured) in original box with all the warrantees? The throttle plates are big as spare wheels. It’ll rock(et) your stang to the moon in no time
WKR
Jonny
How was your trip? I’m finally at home and sitting here with a Miller Genuine Draft and reading about your struggle with that Autolite carb. Don’t miss judge me, I like the Autolite´s but I have a suggestion. You sad you have a FSPP headers with ceramic coating, single outlet. Howe about to swap it for a new Holley 500cfm, (Holley remanufactured) in original box with all the warrantees? The throttle plates are big as spare wheels. It’ll rock(et) your stang to the moon in no time
WKR
Jonny
80Stang
Well-known member
You said it: likely there is a simple reason for a problem.
Lesson one: while rebuilding your carb, do it right. At least put the throttle plates the right way.
Mine were upside down, so the narrower edge (sorry can't explain this too good, but you know the plate is machined on one edge a little bit) was facing up as it should face down. Caused too many idle holes be revealed too early and at low vacuum/low rpm the mixture got very rich.
I got into this while I cleaned thoroughly my other 2100/1.14. Was pretty fresh and I had no new parts for it so I put it back together without a rebuild kit. Along the way I inspected the plates on my carbs and found out I had put the plates upside down on the first carb.
I'm clear of the stumbling/stalling! Now the whistling has disappeared too (didn't mention it earlier, the car whistled like an old turbo under acceleration).
Runs like a dream now, idles pretty well at 800rpm without need to put it higher. The only "problem" is the jetting currently too small (lean spots are still there). Now I think a matched pair of 59s might be worth testing once again. Idle mix screws setting changed a lot for this other carb: now they are some 3 rounds out...
Next steps planned ahead: got the Holley 350 cleaned enough to be tested, also have a rebuild kit for the 2100/1.21 coming in. I'll try to get these tuned before the dyno so I'll take three runs and see what's the real world difference between the three carbs in means of HP & torque.
Lesson one: while rebuilding your carb, do it right. At least put the throttle plates the right way.
Mine were upside down, so the narrower edge (sorry can't explain this too good, but you know the plate is machined on one edge a little bit) was facing up as it should face down. Caused too many idle holes be revealed too early and at low vacuum/low rpm the mixture got very rich.
I got into this while I cleaned thoroughly my other 2100/1.14. Was pretty fresh and I had no new parts for it so I put it back together without a rebuild kit. Along the way I inspected the plates on my carbs and found out I had put the plates upside down on the first carb.
I'm clear of the stumbling/stalling! Now the whistling has disappeared too (didn't mention it earlier, the car whistled like an old turbo under acceleration).
Runs like a dream now, idles pretty well at 800rpm without need to put it higher. The only "problem" is the jetting currently too small (lean spots are still there). Now I think a matched pair of 59s might be worth testing once again. Idle mix screws setting changed a lot for this other carb: now they are some 3 rounds out...
Next steps planned ahead: got the Holley 350 cleaned enough to be tested, also have a rebuild kit for the 2100/1.21 coming in. I'll try to get these tuned before the dyno so I'll take three runs and see what's the real world difference between the three carbs in means of HP & torque.
