vacuum advance clarification.

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i was reading the duraspark thread and became confused. i have the dual vacuum distributor. i had continued to use the vacuum advance although half of it doesnt work. but i may have it hooked up wrong.
could someone explain the purpose of the usual single vacuum advance?
does it retard the ignition when vacuum drops......or does it advance the ignition when vacuum drops?

thanks frankie
 
Depends on what you hook it up to. The vacuum cannister will only advance the timing. If you hook it up to intake manifold vacuum and open the throttle, vacuum drops and timing is retarded from the initial setting. If you hook it up to a carburator vacuum port and open the throttle, vacuum increases and the timing is advanced from the initial setting.

Results hooked to carburator vacuum will vary with your carburator. My Autolite 1100 did not have enough vacuum through the port to change the timing, but the Holley/Weber does.

I have mine hooked up up to the intake manifold vacuum. This gives more advance at idle and then the timing retards if the throttle is opened wide. This seems to be the best set up for mine.

Don't know how the dual advance unit is supposed to work.
 
Alabama65stang":2u91ex54 said:
Depends on what you hook it up to. The vacuum cannister will only advance the timing. If you hook it up to intake manifold vacuum and open the throttle, vacuum drops and timing is retarded from the initial setting. If you hook it up to a carburator vacuum port and open the throttle, vacuum increases and the timing is advanced from the initial setting.


i have to thank you for this bit of info, as soon as i read this i went out and hooked up my vacuum advance to the manifold because it made no difference when hooked up to the carb. my carb is a Carter YFA. as soon as i hooked up the vac advance i noticed the difference in idle, it was very smooth and a bit quieter, very nice. i havent taken it for a spin but i dont think there will be too much difference in perfomance .
 
Dual vacuum advance distributors have two nipples located on opposite sides of the vacuum cannister. Initially, conventional single vacuum advance distributors had one nipple usually hooked to a manifold vacuum source which served to advance timing at idle. When you accelerated at low engine rpm, the vac advance served to bridge the gap between the initial vac advance (that you set with the timing light) and the centrifugal advance that kicks in gradually as rpm's increase. At wide open throttle manifold vacuum drops and the amount of advance is decreased.
The dual vacuum distributor was developed to decrease emissions. It uses two different sources of vacuum. One source acts on the opposite side of the vacuum diaphram in order to decrease the amount of advance. This retards the timing and increases combustion temperatures at idle, thereby reducing emissions. The dual vacuum cannister is not considered performance enhancement. Just to be clear, I have noticed some threads referencing dual advance distributors when they were talking about distributors that have both vacuum advance and centrifugal advance as opposed to the Loadamatic distributor which had vacuum advance only and no provisions for centrifugal advance.
 
So should I connect the vac advance on my standard dizz to the carb vac or the manifold vac?
 
well...actually, it will not make a difference where you hook it up. For single vacuum advance, you should hook up the dizzy to the carb because it is ported. That means the vacuum only becomes active at a certain vacuum or RPM. this is what you want, because at idle, you do not want vacuum advance playing a part.

The only time you hook up a dizzy to the manifold is for dual vac advance dizzy. one side hooks up to the carb, one to the manifold. They basically work against each other to even out the timing over the RPM range. the manifold one will retard the timing slightly less then the ported carb vacuum advances it. it was for emissions.

more then likely, what happened to you when you switched the vacuum source is this: your original timing was probably set too low, and the vacuum from the manifold advanced the initial timing more adn smoothed out the timing by advancing the initial timing more. That is what I think is 99% sure of what happened in your case. I'd hook back to the carb, and reset your initial timing. vacuum timing should not be a factor until after 1000RPM.

Slade
 
A manifold vacuum source as opposed to a ported vacuum source will yield more advanced timing, smoother idle and lower combustion temperatures. At idle, the fuel charge is more diluted with exhaust gases and needs more advance due to the slower flame propogation under these conditions. For maximum snap in performance you want to use all of the advance that you can short of causing detonation. Ported vacuum was not developed for performance enhancement, but rather as an emission strategy to reduce the advance at idle and increase combustion temperatures. That being said, in order to take advantage of a manifold vacuum source, the vacuum cannister needs to be tailored to the engine vacuum, such that all of the advance from the vacuum can is fully applied at a vacuum level 2" below that of the idle vacuum. If the vacuum advance is not fully in below the idle vacuum, the idle will be erratic. I think this is why many of the cars equipped with loadamatic distributors do not run well when the carb is replaced and does not have the spark advance port.
 
so when using a dual vacuum distributor to perform the function of the old-style single vacuum advance, we would hook up vacuum to the side of the cannister farthest away from the distributor. this advances the distributor at idle and it retards quickly as the throttle opens. the advance for the power curve is mainly achieved from the centrifugal advance.
the factory setting in the book is 6-8 BTDC i think. any particular favored setting for the stock 68 200 using the dual vacuum as a single on unleaded?
thanks for the input guys frankie
 
Sorry for the length of the dissertation. For a dual advance vacuum canister, you can use nipple on the outboard side of the diaphram, and not use the inboard nipple that functioned to retard the timing. You might try to set your initial timing at 10 degrees or more. If you get pinging, back off the timing. You may also be able to adjust the spring tension on the diaphram in the vacuum cannister by inserting a hex key into the nipple. Many cannisters allow this adjustment. It will change the level of vacuum at which the diaphram starts to move and when it finishes. As noted before, it can lead to idle problems if a vacuum cannister requires 16" of vacuum to fully advance, and your engine only has 14" of vacuum at idle. Pull the cap off of the distributor and use a vacuum pump and gauge to see the amount of vacuum at which the vacuum advance starts and finishes. Ignition timing has 3 components that make up the total advance: Initial, vacuum, and centrifugal. You set the initial advance and then the combination of the other two, vacuum & centrifugal, ultimately determine your total timing. Since the centrifugal does not contribute until you have achieved some minimum engine speed, vacuum advance is used to bridge the gap between idle speed and the engine speed when centrifugal dominates the timing. Centrifugal may start advancing the timing at 1200 to 1600 rpm and may not be fully advanced until 3000 rpm. Some old cars did not have provisions for vacuum advance. However, these special h.p. engines had a power band in the 3500 to 6500 rpm range, well above where all of the centrifugal advance would be fully deployed. Street drivability and fuel economy would be enhanced if it had vacuum advance. Engines do not expel the exhaust well at low rpm’s, especially with long duration cams. More ignition advance is needed in these diluted mixtures because the flame front progresses at slower speeds.

Manifold sources provide maximum vacuum and should be used if possible. It provides the greatest source of vacuum. Ported sources provide less vacuum and less advance at idle, because it is vented above the throttle plates. If there is less advance at idle, then the gap between the initial timing and the point where centrifugal timing takes over is even greater. Ported sources were incorporated in the 60’s in order to reduce the amount of advance at idle, thereby increasing temperatures and reducing emissions. At idle, total timing may be about 25 degrees (10 degree initial, 15 deg vacuum). Punch the throttle wide open at low engine rpm’s and the engine may bog in part because the vacuum advance component has fallen and the centrifugal component is not up to speed yet. The fuel mixture is relatively lean because the vacuum signal to the carb was reduced. The dilute mixture would ideally require more advance. Accelerator pump circuits help provide more fuel to overcome the loss of signal to the carb, but the ignition advance still suffers. At wide open throttle, above say 3000 rpm, you will likely have 35 degrees of total timing (10 deg initial, 25 deg centr). At cruising speed, the total timing consists of some combination of all three components and may run 45 to 50 degrees but the engine can handle larger timing advance at higher rpm’s. It is all a compromise with the old distributors.

Another note, distributors from emission era cars that used EGR valves etc, may have more advance designed into the timing curves than what a non-emission vehicle may need. The EGR valves dilute the combustion mixture, which required more ignition advance. They also typically had a larger portion of the timing contributed by the vacuum advance curves. These distributors may need to be re-curved to you specific application. New cars have a computer-mapped timing curve that is less of a compromise and does a better job of optimizing the timing under all load and engine speed variations.
 
wow that is long. i ust found another site and got some info so here goes, u can never have too much info right :wink:

vacuum advance will benefit the engine as follows:

1. improved idle cooling
2. improved idle quality
3. improved fuel economy
4. improved throttle response
5. improves driveability
6. enables improved spark knock control under full throttle accelerations
7. enables leaner fuel jetting at light load to further improve fuel economy

without vacuum advance the distributer can only vary spark timing in proportion to speed and ignores its need for approximately 20 additional degrees of spark timing ('advance') at light loads: (idle and cruise conditions)

All engines are different, and have different spark timing requirements, but they are all the same in that as load is decreased, additional spark timing is required for optimum combustion.

source is http://www.stoveboltengineco.com/howto/vac.htm it says a few extras that i didnt include.
 
MustangSix:

how about the site above being included in the tech pages?
i have it printed out and dont see any copyrite on it, did u want to check it out and see if its worthy?
 
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