Water Temp--A problem or not?

['68falconohio]

Some of you will know about my 200 build as you you've helped me A LOT. As I move farther into driving my car daily again I have another problem...

Originally, I had a rebuilt HW 5200 direct mounted to my log head and I was having problems with it seeping fuel when I shut the engine off. I rejetted this carb with the jets that the jeep guys are using on their 258ci-6(found in the weber sticky). I had nothing but problems with this carb from the start and screwing the air/fuel screw all the way in would not make it stumble, let alone die... It ran extremely lean(plugs were chalk white) with the recommended 258 jets in it so I started looking for another carb thinking this one was messed up internally....

Kid down the road blew up a 258 in his jeep and sold me the weber 32/36 that was on it for $30. I used one of his adapter plates from his jeep to make the linkage clear and have it bolted up now. It runs much much better than the HW 5200 that was on it but I don't know what jets are in the weber, neither does he.

All readings listed below were taken at relatively same air temp today in Ohio (80*) on same drive. I drove for about 10-15 minutes at each speed to let the water temp level off and hold. The thermostat is new and is a 195* thermostat.

Idle(30 minutes)--195*F
50mph--190*F
60mph--195*F
70mph--200*F

I tried to hold the throttle as close to steady as possible and I set the timing before the drive to 10*BTDC at roughly 600rpm with vacuum to DUI disconnected and plugged. I do not have access to a Tach. right now so guessing 600rpm is the best I've to offer. The vac line on the DUI is manifold vacuum and the engine does not ping when the engine is wound out. The tank was half a gallon from empty and i filled up with 94 octane before this drive.

My best guess is as I'm approaching speeds of 60-70mph, I'm right at the boarder of opening up the secondary and I'm getting lean condition which is raising the water temp. I'm worried because I think it should be getting cooler as the air speeds increase, but it seems lean to me.

Should I stop stressing about the water temp that is 10-15* higher than I would like it to be??? I have a Holley 2300 that a buddy gave me, I want to change to it but it will require more time and tinkering to get the car running again.

I have to drive the falcon the rest of this week on the freeway and I am being worked in Cincinnati next week which means I need to be able to drive my car 100 miles to Cinci and then drive 50 miles everyday next week for work. Any thoughts on how I can get this water temp down, or what is causing it???? One of my friends said that it could run just a smidge warmer because the engine is so fresh but nothing drastic.

Thanks,
Stephen

 

[aribert]

I do not have an answer to your water temp other than to suggest a 165 or so T-stat.

I also am in the process of dialing in a Weber 32/36 on my Falcon. I would strongly suggest seeing what jets you currently have. If nothing else, check just the idle jets - these have an external access and you do not even have to remove the top cover of the carb and you spend 75% or your driving on these jets only.

Just for a second data point, my carb is a DGV5A (and it is supposed to use the large diameter (OD) idle jet on the primary but I have only bought the small dia idle jets to date. I use an old narrow band 3-wire O2 sensor and a $30 gage along with occasional plug checks. Currently my car runs consistenly moderately rich from idle to over 65 mph with the engine only mildly rich at speeds above 70 mph. My jetting today is: Primary idle 65, Secondary idle 50, Primary main 162 (drilled just a few thou oversize), Secondary main 158 (again drilled), Primary air correct 180, Secondary air correct 170, Accel pump 50 (I will be drilling this one oversize in the near future - I see a lean condition and hear detonation while under hard acceleration), Emulsion tubes F50.

 

[fordconvert]

A 195 stat is going to keep the minimum temp around 195 so that part is normal. Doing 70 down the road is making the engine work so few more degrees does not seem unusual. These old cars dont exactly have carefully engineered air flow so its possible that at 70 you actually have less flow though the radiator. I have totally stock car that started running hot. After years of trying to figure out why I gave up and rebuilt the engine. Problem got even worse. Finally bought another similar car and noticed it had these rubbery flap things between the wheel well and the frame which was missing from my other car. Just for fun I took those out of that car and the temp went up at highway speeds. They must have been there for a reason other than keeping water from splashing under the hood. I dont understand airflow that well but it must have been some sort of pressure zone thing that altered the flow under the hood. You can get up to 230 safely with a 13-16 psi cap and the correct mix of antifreeze. As long as it does not boil its in theory not a problem. Unless you have a huge radiator with carefully engineered airflow the 165 stat may not make any difference on the warmer days. Modern cars rarely get below 200.

 

[falcon fanatic]

Mine runs rock steady at 190 as long as the electric fan is blowing or I am moving. get in stop and go traffic it goes up to 210, then the fan comes on and brings it back down to 190. Runs well at those temps and not a threat to the engine, so i think you are fine.

As for the carb, next time you have $250 lying around, get a wideband O2 sensor. It's the best way to get your jetting right. In the meantime, follow the tables posted elsewhere in this forum. re-jetting these carbs is super easy and inexpensive, so no reason not to do so.

 

[wallaka]

Don't worry about it, your temp readings look pretty normal to me. Keep the thermostat you have, nothing wrong with it.

 

[BIGREDRASA]

The chalky plugs are a problem. You're way too lean. My carb had 130 Pri, 140 Sec., so I swapped in 140 Pri, 170 Sec. Now the plugs look like they have a deep tan. Secondary needs to be richer than primary, specially for highway driving going up and down hills. see:http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg54/FamiliaSalazar/Cartech/HWJetting052809-1.jpg

As far as the temps, reroute the heater hoses to the driver side of the valve cover.

 

['68falconohio]

Thanks for all the help guys. I got some more info with my driving today...

Due to construction on the freeway and a broke down taxi, I drove about 6 miles at 10-15mph sucking the exhaust from a pickup truck straight into my radiator. I tried to leave some space between us but someone always screws that idea up. The water temp rose to 225* and held steady. As soon as I got around the taxi and brought the car up to 50mph, the water temp flew down to 200*. I couldn't smell anti-freeze at all and when I got to my apartment 2 miles away, there was no evidence of any antifreeze leaving the blowoff tube. I checked the radiator a couple hours later and it was still full.

I've checked that the radiator is full and that the thermostat is opening on more than one occasion to put my mind at ease. I know someone would ask if I've done this and I would've asked also. The simple things checked first. The temp gauge climbs to 210* before the thermostat opens and then the temp gauge quickly falls to around 160* before climbing again. The temp gauge is a mechanical Sun-Pro unit that I really wished I would've put in a pot of boiling water before I installed it. I guess that would've been the bright thing to do, oh well.

My guess, other than the temp gauge or thermostat being inaccurate, for the difference between thermostat advertised opening temp and the temp gauge reading is the fact that the temp sensor is on the rear roadside corner of the head.

I'm going to install a 180* thermostat in the bird tomorrow with the logic being that if my cruising temp is 200* and I have a 195* thermostat it's probably slapping open and close erratically. I'm going to drill a hole in the thermostat before I install it.

BIGREDRASA,
The chalk white readings on the spark plugs were with the HW 5200. But get this, I had installed the jets that are listed in your spreadsheet labeled '6 Cyl Base'. I wanted to go super rich and work my way back to stoich instead of having super lean first. That's why I think that carb was junk, along with the fact that it puked fuel out of the butterfly shafts when you shut it down, and that screwing the air screw all the way in did nothing. It ran hot with the HW 5200 and still seemed extremely lean via driving characteristic/plug appearance.

I've already moved the heater hoses away from the carburetor due to fuel boiling issues with the 5200. Unfortunately, they are pinned on the curbside shock tower. I'll go ahead and move them to the side with less hot stuff. Good Call.

My plan of action for tomorrow is:
1.) Pull the plugs when I get to work in the morning and check them out.
If they look chalky white...It's jet time.
If they look tan...start cussing inanimate objects.
2.) Install 180* thermostat
3.) Adjust timing to 8*BTDC and start tweaking vacuum can so it has less advance at low end. I don't know, maybe I'll get a little more torque too!

If the plugs are tan and the above mentioned doesn't help I'm going to have to consider the thought that in my infinite wisdom, I never flushed the radiator out between engine swaps. I did blow a head gasket on the previous motor and the water did have nice oily gunk in it. Genius, I know.

I have until Saturday to make this thing a reliable machine.....err, I mean grocery getter. With that said, what's my best bet for local jets for the Weber?? I bought the last jets from Italy off of Fleabay but I don't have the time for that now.

Thanks a Kaberzillybillion Guys,
Stephen

 

[JOHN G]

Pierce Manifolds for the jets-I have aways gotten good service from them. My car rarely goes above 185 unless stuck in traffic. I can be cruising the parkway and see 160 for long periods at a time. Everyone of these things runs a little different IMO. Maybe a fan shroud would help funnel the air a little better?

 

[69.5Mav]

Hope this helps

When you replace your thermostat back flush the radiator, use hot water if you can.

When you rebuilt the engine did you install a new water pump, if not how old is the one on the car.

Put in some Water wetter.

In order to have good airflow at high way speeds you want to seal the hood to the cowl and core support. Get some foam wether stripping and install it at the back of the hood in the cowl area so it seals off the high pressure from the windshield and in front on the core support so air can't sneak around the radiator and cause a reduction of air going through the radiator.

Make sure your fan belt is in good shape and not slipping.

Lean Fuel mixture and retarded timing can cause over heating.

Check your temp gage agaist another thermometer stuck in the radiator cap opening. They are cheap at the grocery store.

As a last gasp fix you can get an aluminium radiator off ebay. This will help to maximize your heat exchange from coolant to air.

You are not running to hot yet but you never know if it will hold steady or get worse.

 

[LaGrasta]

"In order to have good airflow at high way speeds you want to seal the hood to the cowl and core support. Get some foam wether stripping and install it at the back of the hood in the cowl area so it seals off the high pressure from the windshield and in front on the core support so air can't sneak around the radiator and cause a reduction of air going through the radiator."

Good advice, and one I haven't tried. Thanks.

 

[69.5Mav]

The pressure at the windshield/cowl is so high at speeds aproaching high way speeds that they make special hood to ram that air into the engine, cowl induction hoods. Ford puts rubber seal there for some reason.

 

['68falconohio]

Well guys, I took a look at the plugs and they all have black carbon deposit/film on them. They are onlly 300 miles old and the black 'soot' wiped off very easily. This was present on the threads, and both electrodes. It's rich and I'm fine with that for the time being.

As for the insulators, they were all brownish red....Call it a hazel, I guess. I used to run lead substitute in my tank religiously with the old motor but don't have to run it now since I'm using a late model log head. I think I'm going to drop down in the heat range on the plugs 2 steps because I'm running Autolite 46's right now.

Put a 180* thermostat in it today, drilled a 1/4" hole in the flat part of the thermostat before I installed it and the water temp climbed to 190* and stayed there at idle. I wish I had the money for a wideband O2 sensor and gauge right now because that would be a lot more accurate than my novice eyes looking at all the spark plugs.

Gonna drive it for a bit, see where she heats up to and go from there.

Thanks for the help guys,
Stephen

 

[JackFish]

I've run my engine for hours on the highway with temps above 200. Haven't had a problem yet.
The coolant should be able to run up to 230+ without boiling.

 

[Williboy]

A 1/4" hole in the thermostat is pretty big that's going to let alot of water seep thru. Most people drill a 1/8" hole. My Ranchero also always seemed to run around 190*- 200*, even with a 160* or a 180* stat. A local radiator shop I talked to said that seeing that the motor was .060" over, it will run hotter. Thinner walls, more heat transfer theory. I finally figured if it wants to run at that temp, well... let it. I put in a 195* and it stays around 200*. Now I haven't ( nor want to) drive it 100* stop-and-go traffic, but it seems to like it there.

A wideband O2 is a great investment. I picked one up off Ebay for around $200. With it you see that just a 1/4 turn of the idle screw will make a difference. You'll be able to tell if it's the idle circuit or mains, one could be rich and the other lean. If you have any friends also interested in one you can share the cost and then swap it out after your done. All you need is a weld in bung and a plug. Or sell it used on Ebay for most your money.

 

['68falconohio]

Williboy,
The hole was a 3/16". Someone left a drill bit laying out in the shop so I snagged it and drilled the hole. It does take longer to come up to temp now but it does. If the bypass hole becomes a problem in cold weather I will have to change the thermostat again.

My biggest concern was that the higher temps were due to lean fuel mixture and I don't think that's the case after looking at the plugs with the Weber carb on it. But like I said, I'm novice with engines so I'm going to have to get a O2 sensor when the money shows up.

This motor only has 300 miles on it, it's been bored .030 over and a few other mods. I'm hoping a set of headers will help get the heat out a little better and let it burn a little more of the fuel. Speculating, but I hope this to be the case.

 

[JOHN G]

As for the o2-just use a one wire from a gm and buy the bung from napa. there are sites that show what the output voltage from the o2 transfers to as an o2 reading on your digital multimeter. Much cheaper-not quite as fast on the data, but good enough to tune with.