All Small Six What to do about damaged pistons in 144

[JoeCrozier]

I stand corrected, in my defense I got my info from here at CI tech archive, so it is wrong.

No problem! I'm a total rookie and it was the first I'd heard of compression height but I was pretty sure of it.

While you have successfully removed the pistons from the bores if you try to reuse the pistons the next chore will be getting the old rings off without damaging the ring grooves, getting the pistons out will seem like a walk in the park compared to this chore. Since this is a shoestring deal you could try looking at pistons from other engines with a near 3.5 " bore and see if you can find some that have a similar CH and wristpin size. For example Ford 221 V8's and Buick Olds 215 V8's also have a 3.5" bore but I don't know if their CH and wristpin sizes are close. Another thing you can do is check evil bay some vendors on there have old stock pistons for older engines that are sometimes very reasonably priced, its usually from a buyout of a defunct parts supplier or repair shop.But before you drop anything on pistons make sure the block is crack free with water in there it could have frozen.

Thank you for all the suggestions! It SEEMS like those are too far off in terms of dimensions. I'll keep looking

It really seems like (with a thorough internet search) I can only find two sources of the pistons. The Advanced Auto option I mentioned earlier I think is actually a bust. The two sources I can find are:

-That ebay listing @rocklord mentioned from Australia. ($400 after shipping)
-Egge pistons ($400). A guy on ebay selling 170 pistons (that I also asked if would work in 144's) said he thinks egge is the only company making pistons for 144's. And given what I can find, I believe him.

So I think I'm faced with the decision of somehow saving not-great pistons (assuming my cylinders aren't junk or need to be bored), or dropping $400 on new pistons. I'd find a cheap 144 on craigslist/facebook to steal those pistons but they seem pretty rare. I see plenty of 170's/200's.

 

[Frank]

No problem! I'm a total rookie and it was the first I'd heard of compression height but I was pretty sure of it.


Thank you for all the suggestions! It SEEMS like those are too far off in terms of dimensions. I'll keep looking

It really seems like (with a thorough internet search) I can only find two sources of the pistons. The Advanced Auto option I mentioned earlier I think is actually a bust. The two sources I can find are:

-That ebay listing @rocklord mentioned from Australia. ($400 after shipping)
-Egge pistons ($400). A guy on ebay selling 170 pistons (that I also asked if would work in 144's) said he thinks egge is the only company making pistons for 144's. And given what I can find, I believe him.

So I think I'm faced with the decision of somehow saving not-great pistons (assuming my cylinders aren't junk or need to be bored), or dropping $400 on new pistons. I'd find a cheap 144 on craigslist/facebook to steal those pistons but they seem pretty rare. I see plenty of 170's/200's.

Joe, I've been holding back but wanting to say this the whole time. It's not a suggestion or recommendation.
I've seen engines rusted up like that be cleaned up and the same parts reused. In one case I witnessed, it was not even disassembled. The pistons were knocked loose till it would turn over, new head gasket and oil, and fired it up. I thought there was NO WAY the engine would run without smoking out all the oil quickly. It was not as rusted as yours but it was rusted to being locked up and taking a sledge hammer and 2x4 on the pistons to free it up. It smoked some, used some oil but continued powering a piece of farm equipment for several more years.
Since this is more of a learner-build and you don't have a vehicle for it- this is an inexpensive option that will give you a running engine. It may smoke and use oil- or it may not be that bad.
One thing that must be considered, the pistons you've found available are standard size. they won't work if the block is machined. . You have very limited options apart from expensive reseleeving and expensive standard bore pistons.

My first car was given to me. It used as much oil as gas, almost undrivable because of the cloud of blue exhaust smoke. I was 15 years old and didn't have a clue what was the right way to fix it. I put a new set of rings on the pistons- that's it, no boring no bearings, anything. It was a flathead inline 6. I drove that car past high school graduation. It did not have visible smoke, and used a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so. Now it was not locked up and rusty like yours- . . . just FYI.

And as a personal addition- A year ago I found that same car for sale a few hundred miles from here, still in good shape with the same JC Whitney piston rings I put on it in '75. I bought it, and it's the next project now that the truck overhaul is done. Hope to have it back on the road by fall.

 

[JoeCrozier]

Joe, I've been holding back but wanting to say this the whole time. It's not a suggestion or recommendation.
I've seen engines rusted up like that be cleaned up and the same parts reused. In one case I witnessed, it was not even disassembled. The pistons were knocked loose till it would turn over, new head gasket and oil, and fired it up. I thought there was NO WAY the engine would run without smoking out all the oil quickly. It was not as rusted as yours but it was rusted to being locked up and taking a sledge hammer and 2x4 on the pistons to free it up. It smoked some, used some oil but continued powering a piece of farm equipment for several more years.
Since this is more of a learner-build and you don't have a vehicle for it- this is an inexpensive option that will give you a running engine. It may smoke and use oil- or it may not be that bad.
One thing that must be considered, the pistons you've found available are standard size. they won't work if the block is machined. . You have very limited options apart from expensive reseleeving and expensive standard bore pistons.

My first car was given to me. It used as much oil as gas, almost undrivable because of the cloud of blue exhaust smoke. I was 15 years old and didn't have a clue what was the right way to fix it. I put a new set of rings on the pistons- that's it, no boring no bearings, anything. It was a flathead inline 6. I drove that car past high school graduation. It did not have visible smoke, and used a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so. Now it was not locked up and rusty like yours- . . . just FYI.

And as a personal addition- A year ago I found that same car for sale a few hundred miles from here, still in good shape with the same JC Whitney piston rings I put on it in '75. I bought it, and it's the next project now that the truck overhaul is done. Hope to have it back on the road by fall.

Ha! That's a great story about finding the old car you used to have. I'd love to magically get my hands on my old 88 Toyota Tercel that was my first.

Great points. Definitely on the same page that my goal is just: "will it run?" I am not looking to build a performance engine, or even really an engine I depend on to drive another 50,000miles. If it turns on and I can shout "Yippee! I built a functioning engine!" then I've won.

Following a couple of 'Uncle Tony's' YouTube videos for:
-Assessing whether a block needs boring or you can get by with honing (using an old piston ring to assess)
-Inspecting parts for the home engine builder (he spends time on pistons)
His channel seems to be on the same page for: "this isnt what you SHOULD do, but its what you CAN do"

And I'm optimistic that I MIGHT be able to get by with honing the cylinders, deep cleaning the pistons and deburring some dents I made, and then new rings. Not perfect, but might run.


If I have to go down the road of boring the cylinders and new pistons, it does seem like those egge pistons can be oversized, but the we're talking about throwing a decent chunk of change at this engine and I'll have to make some tough decisions. Will keep everyone posted and I appreciate everyone' feedback!

 

[PSIG]

Wouldn't waste time on them, hammer removal can easily cause fractures in the piston, and crack the ring lands.

To that, I'll add that they are pressed-pin pistons. So, the piston wrist pin bore slides and rotates on only the wrist pin, and is a press-fit on the connecting rod small end. This means all rotation bearing forces are on the piston pin bore, which may now be out-of-round. For me, trash. In the zombie apocalypse I might try, or for assembly practice. Yes, you could mic them for OOR (should be done anyway to ensure used pin bore min-max I.D.), but the possibility of micro stress-cracks adds to the apprehension.

From my seat, 144s are disappearing quick due to parts availability and desirability, much like Model A engines 40 years ago. My direction would be a rebuildable condition 170 or larger with available parts, so I would have something usable or salable at reasonable cost. I might hoard some of the peripheral parts that could be reconditioned for or better condition than the next engine. Get my value out. Your decisions for your reasons are yours. Do your thing. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

 

[JoeCrozier]

To that, I'll add that they are pressed-pin pistons. So, the piston wrist pin bore slides and rotates on only the wrist pin, and is a press-fit on the connecting rod small end. This means all rotation bearing forces are on the piston pin bore, which may now be out-of-round. For me, trash. In the zombie apocalypse I might try, or for assembly practice. Yes, you could mic them for OOR (should be done anyway to ensure used pin bore min-max I.D.), but the possibility of micro stress-cracks adds to the apprehension.

From my seat, 144s are disappearing quick due to parts availability and desirability, much like Model A engines 40 years ago. My direction would be a rebuildable condition 170 or larger with available parts, so I would have something usable or salable at reasonable cost. I might hoard some of the peripheral parts that could be reconditioned for or better condition than the next engine. Get my value out. Your decisions for your reasons are yours. Do your thing. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Got ya. Haha and here I was thinking a free, undesirable engine off craigslist would mean parts would be cheap....

May still 'assemble' it as I mentioned to Frank, but the thing I've learned for this thread is that best practice would definitely be to buy new ones, for several reasons.

 

[PSIG]

Used can be OK, but only if actually usable. That trickles down to other stuff like bore condition, diameter, pitting, etc. You don't need all the fancy tooling and gauges for engine rebuilding, but you do need a variety of basic ones. The rest, like accurate bore mic (taper, OOR, etc), deck height, mains alignment, lifter bores, crack detection, etc, can be done cheap or free by your local engine shop. I would use this one to practice blueprinting techniques - always a benefit. Take a pizza coupon with you or something, either as a bribe or a thank you.