TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
Everywhere I've read online says 4.5 quarts total, pan and filter. Also saw that overfilled oil can cause white smoke with a bluish tinge...
White smoke at idle, out of ideas!!!!
- Thread starter TucsonHooligan
- Start date
TucsonHooligan":1bz6qgpd said:
Yes it will but it would have to be allot. Had a neighbor who's Integra was overfilled by more then twice as much. Car burned oil ran bad and in general was not happy. I drained out the excess and viola car stopped burning oil.
I do not think your problem is Valve Guide seals. These usually manifest as smoke on start up that clears and smoke on deceleration.
What do your plugs look like? A gritty black deposit usually indicates oil burning.
TucsonHooligan":1bz6qgpd said:
With your compression test numbers it does not seem like your rings are bad. I would suggest rerunning it and this time do it dry, then wet.
Is it an Automatic Trans car, Could you be losing trans fluid into the engine?
turbo2256b
Well-known member
A engine can have good compression and burn oil. the compression rings can be good but the oil rings bad. Would do a leak down test. With that one can even listen to were the leakage is. EXH intake crankcase
turbo2256b
Well-known member
TucsonHooligan":16iqi32m said:
+ 1 on that if I remember correctly. Except mine holds 7 + filter.
This is something that given good advice, shouldn't be one page deep to fix.
1.What's your fuel consumption like with the 32/36 Weber? I've found that the stock 4-cylinder emuslsion tubes can cause a rich idle, rich enough to create a blue ploom behind a vehcile.
2. Is your car likely to have had a freeze/thaw situation where a hairline stream crack is formed. This is real common on US thinwall Ford blocks seeing as some parts of the US (due to altitude/climate) can swing from negative 30 degrees F to 100 in 24 hours. Just one cycle can result in No 1 cylinder hairline cracking, causing permanent damage that is unable to be conclusively determined.
You should check the obvious first, though,
1.Find a shop which will run a hydocarbon gas indicator sensor in upper radiator tank, std check for a blown head gasket
2. 24 static leakdown. 24 hrs, not a couple. If they don't, do one yourself using a PVC pipe water tester such as Mico pipes or Ingersol Rand make for the contracting industry. Pressurise to 6psi, but Instead of water, use kerosene, and measure leakdown over 4 hours after an 8 hour cool down. You need a stock spark plug insert adaptor so you can put a scew in union into the spark plug. Flow rates for kero are sky high. You'll have to grab some gear from home depot, but here are some examples of the 2-stroke ones
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/691117 ... end-power/
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/432226 ... -2-stroke/
If there is a great loss in pressure compared to other cylinders, then the crancase will need an oil change. The cylinder should be filled carefully with about 632 mililiters of kero at bottom dead centre, and at all times, turned only via a 3/4 scoket and inch prybar. Kero is danagerous projectile under pressure, and just a degree of turn will drive out a bunch of it. There is the option of loading up the No 1 cylinder via hand wit the pry bar, and then locking it with a log of 2 by 4 jacked with a non hydralic Toyota car jack. Then do2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
Last option. Well, over here, a Falcon head gasket is like $33 NZ for one Monotorque 41 thou composite AFF630 which Ford Australia stocks for all 200/221/250 log and 2v headed Frauds. So its reall easy to undo the cylinder head and exhast manifold and wack in another an see if it fixes the problem.
You can't ask a page of info, and not get the hel[p yopu need, brother. We want you to get the white or blue smoke gone! but your gonna have to do something different to what you've done. Some small detail not covered is the problem, and the problem is simple to diagnose
1.What's your fuel consumption like with the 32/36 Weber? I've found that the stock 4-cylinder emuslsion tubes can cause a rich idle, rich enough to create a blue ploom behind a vehcile.
2. Is your car likely to have had a freeze/thaw situation where a hairline stream crack is formed. This is real common on US thinwall Ford blocks seeing as some parts of the US (due to altitude/climate) can swing from negative 30 degrees F to 100 in 24 hours. Just one cycle can result in No 1 cylinder hairline cracking, causing permanent damage that is unable to be conclusively determined.
You should check the obvious first, though,
1.Find a shop which will run a hydocarbon gas indicator sensor in upper radiator tank, std check for a blown head gasket
2. 24 static leakdown. 24 hrs, not a couple. If they don't, do one yourself using a PVC pipe water tester such as Mico pipes or Ingersol Rand make for the contracting industry. Pressurise to 6psi, but Instead of water, use kerosene, and measure leakdown over 4 hours after an 8 hour cool down. You need a stock spark plug insert adaptor so you can put a scew in union into the spark plug. Flow rates for kero are sky high. You'll have to grab some gear from home depot, but here are some examples of the 2-stroke ones
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/691117 ... end-power/
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/432226 ... -2-stroke/
If there is a great loss in pressure compared to other cylinders, then the crancase will need an oil change. The cylinder should be filled carefully with about 632 mililiters of kero at bottom dead centre, and at all times, turned only via a 3/4 scoket and inch prybar. Kero is danagerous projectile under pressure, and just a degree of turn will drive out a bunch of it. There is the option of loading up the No 1 cylinder via hand wit the pry bar, and then locking it with a log of 2 by 4 jacked with a non hydralic Toyota car jack. Then do2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
Last option. Well, over here, a Falcon head gasket is like $33 NZ for one Monotorque 41 thou composite AFF630 which Ford Australia stocks for all 200/221/250 log and 2v headed Frauds. So its reall easy to undo the cylinder head and exhast manifold and wack in another an see if it fixes the problem.
You can't ask a page of info, and not get the hel[p yopu need, brother. We want you to get the white or blue smoke gone! but your gonna have to do something different to what you've done. Some small detail not covered is the problem, and the problem is simple to diagnose
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
Xctasy,
I am getting about 17-19 mpg with the Weber, which seems pretty good, but I always thought that carburation might be an issue. One of the things that pointed me towards this was the fact that the adjustment of my timing in coordination with my idle speed seemed to affect the amount of smoke. Set at 12 degress BTDC with no vacuum advance saw the least amount of smoke. When I put the vacuum line one and the timing jumped at idle (I know, not supposed to. Another issue to work out.) The smoke increased.
Head gasket already replaced.
No freeze then thaw. Live in Arizona, not really an issue.
Leak down test waiting on adapter for cylinder.
I am getting about 17-19 mpg with the Weber, which seems pretty good, but I always thought that carburation might be an issue. One of the things that pointed me towards this was the fact that the adjustment of my timing in coordination with my idle speed seemed to affect the amount of smoke. Set at 12 degress BTDC with no vacuum advance saw the least amount of smoke. When I put the vacuum line one and the timing jumped at idle (I know, not supposed to. Another issue to work out.) The smoke increased.
Head gasket already replaced.
No freeze then thaw. Live in Arizona, not really an issue.
Leak down test waiting on adapter for cylinder.
Cool man. I know you've done 99% of the work, and its probably the carb, but take the time out, and after the leakdown test, we can then see if the carb needs a different emulsion tube spec, the problem which stopped Webers being used in the bigger US Fords after 1984.
But unless the hydrocarbon test is done, there is no point in random jetting changes if there is a leakdown or block crack problem. It's a real Cleveland and Windsor engine plant issue when we go out past 30thou, where Ford Canada and Michigan took a lot of metal out of the bores. Bores as thin as 90 thou at the thrust face after age induced rust, and having taken out another 30 thou each side. Its not fatal, but many of my buddies who import US engines have found that egg shell thin wall Henries are the worst for cracks which only open up under certain conditions. Paul, my Pontiac Trans AM 455 punter mate, had a friend with an import 5.0 which almost overheated during the first five minutes, then was okay. Day in, day out, it was fine, just had a scarry temperature rise. Eventually, they stripped it down, and the block had a really small crack which could onl;y be found with a 4" plumbers bung and a fully liquid pressure test. Fairly flowed into the water jacket.
I'm lucky, I've got a little bit of gear which helps me do mine...
I'm in the same situtation with other my standard 3.3 and 4.1 engines, but I'unning three times as many carbs.
But unless the hydrocarbon test is done, there is no point in random jetting changes if there is a leakdown or block crack problem. It's a real Cleveland and Windsor engine plant issue when we go out past 30thou, where Ford Canada and Michigan took a lot of metal out of the bores. Bores as thin as 90 thou at the thrust face after age induced rust, and having taken out another 30 thou each side. Its not fatal, but many of my buddies who import US engines have found that egg shell thin wall Henries are the worst for cracks which only open up under certain conditions. Paul, my Pontiac Trans AM 455 punter mate, had a friend with an import 5.0 which almost overheated during the first five minutes, then was okay. Day in, day out, it was fine, just had a scarry temperature rise. Eventually, they stripped it down, and the block had a really small crack which could onl;y be found with a 4" plumbers bung and a fully liquid pressure test. Fairly flowed into the water jacket.
I'm lucky, I've got a little bit of gear which helps me do mine...
I'm in the same situtation with other my standard 3.3 and 4.1 engines, but I'unning three times as many carbs.
turbo2256b
Well-known member
I ran a Pinto carb on my 81 Mustang 200. Did have a mild solid or hyd cam from Clifford, ported the head, cc ed , Was milled .062 old 170 head. Got 28 to 32 MPG at 80MPH. Dont remember doing much to the carb except moding the power valve curcuit so it wouldnt open as early.
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
Out of town for a couple of days. Sorry, should have some updates either tomorrow or later this week.
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
Update:
Adapter for leak down tester showed up today but I won't be able to do it till this weekend due to school/work constraints.
Also, it is oil for sure. I've checked my level every day after my 43 mile round trip work commute and its slowly crept down. Hard to tell day to day, but from last Tuesday till today it went from just above the halfway line to just above the "Add" line. It's definitely burning oil. Leakdown test to follow.
Adapter for leak down tester showed up today but I won't be able to do it till this weekend due to school/work constraints.
Also, it is oil for sure. I've checked my level every day after my 43 mile round trip work commute and its slowly crept down. Hard to tell day to day, but from last Tuesday till today it went from just above the halfway line to just above the "Add" line. It's definitely burning oil. Leakdown test to follow.
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
Leak down test done. Results are:
Cylinder #1 - 35%
#2 - 26%
#3 - 28%
#4 - 28%
#5 - 25%
#6 - 30%
Also, when the pressure on the unit was pumped all the way up, there was air escaping from the oil fill hole. Nothing noticeable from the carb or the exhaust either audibly or physically. Ok, now that all avenues have been examined, I'll take all advice, no matter how drastic.
As a side not that may or may not matter, the smoke seems to get worse when I slow down the idle. It doesn't smoke at speed, only at lights.
Cylinder #1 - 35%
#2 - 26%
#3 - 28%
#4 - 28%
#5 - 25%
#6 - 30%
Also, when the pressure on the unit was pumped all the way up, there was air escaping from the oil fill hole. Nothing noticeable from the carb or the exhaust either audibly or physically. Ok, now that all avenues have been examined, I'll take all advice, no matter how drastic.
As a side not that may or may not matter, the smoke seems to get worse when I slow down the idle. It doesn't smoke at speed, only at lights.
From your test results I think you can probably rule out any problems with the head. That leaves your short block and likely the rings. What type rings did you use cast, chrome, Molly etc.? Did you do any measurements of clearance during the assembly? In rereading the older posts, You said that you don't have a PVC valve hooked up that it was removed and plugged this not a good idea the crankcase would need to have a form of ventilation. You would need to have the early vented oil cap and a road draft tube to work with out a PVC system. Wish I could see it maybe some pictures of your parts combo would help to sort it out
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
I believe the rings are chrome moly, but I can't be certain. I squirted some oil into a cylinder and redid the leakdown test it it held more compression. It went from approx 30% down to 20% and you could see it falling on the gauge as the air pushed the oil into the gaps. Really at this point could it be anything other than the rings?
I think the rings would be the most likely cause. Reason asked the type of ring is the old Chrome rings are notoriously hard to seat to bores. I prefer to use Molly rings if you think you have those or cast than think it's probably the end gaps or top and second ring installed upside down they would have a mark to show the top.
You have wasted several weeks of playing around with a ring problem from the beginning.
Get your engines lower end done by a professional & install PC valve guide seals.
I'm very sorry all the previous $$$ spend in vain.
When you get it completed the end result will be a very reliable engine which will not burn oil & gain some HP just because of proper ring seal.
Get some of your local AZ guys to get you to the right machine shop.
You do it right & you will be rewarded with the end results. Bill
Get your engines lower end done by a professional & install PC valve guide seals.
I'm very sorry all the previous $$$ spend in vain.
When you get it completed the end result will be a very reliable engine which will not burn oil & gain some HP just because of proper ring seal.
Get some of your local AZ guys to get you to the right machine shop.
You do it right & you will be rewarded with the end results. Bill
TucsonHooligan
Well-known member
You can take your smug know-it-allism and cram it Bill. You ended up being correct by chance, but within the first few posts you told me to pull the motor and redo the bottom end. We hadn't even tried anything yet and you were suggesting the most amount of work. Thats like me coming into the hospital with a cough and you recommending open heart surgery. It's ridiculous. And what money did I waste? 30 bucks on a leak down tester? I would say that was totally worth it for the peace of mind of knowing exactly what went wrong as opposed to guessing and costing myself more money in the long run. Everyone else has been patient and helpful, suggesting simple steps to start out with then getting more drastic as it was needed. You've been a PITA since the first post, and now you sit behind your comp with a sense of smug satisfaction based on a well-reasoned but wholly drastic guess. Grow up.
To everyone else, thanks for all the help and patience and I'll let you know what I work out.
To everyone else, thanks for all the help and patience and I'll let you know what I work out.
"...wholly drastic guess."
may B not? I would agree kinda smug and let's not add to the fire. bubba sez rings...
How much do U think the wrk will B? Can't it be done w/the motor IN? Don't know that rig but U may hafta move some linkage or cross member (hope not the latter) to get the pan off, etc. if it is Keep in touch as U proceed...
I can understand your peturbance, friend. Sending good wishes for the work out time/$/strategy!
may B not? I would agree kinda smug and let's not add to the fire. bubba sez rings...
How much do U think the wrk will B? Can't it be done w/the motor IN? Don't know that rig but U may hafta move some linkage or cross member (hope not the latter) to get the pan off, etc. if it is Keep in touch as U proceed...
I can understand your peturbance, friend. Sending good wishes for the work out time/$/strategy!
What did you want to get out of doing the engine yourself?
I ask because if you are like me, and wanted to get the experience, now is the chance to get even more. If you want it sure fire done right, yes take it to a shop and have it built and spend several extra hundred dollars on it to have someone correct the issue, whether it's yours, theirs, or the guy who put the wrong rings in the box.
If you want more experience and want the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself, as I would, then fix it yourself and save a buck or three. after all they are in short supply.
Take out the engine (assume you had the impliments to instal and remove it last time), Tear it down and examine everything MATICULOUSLY. Measure every ring gap, check the alignment of each set of rings on the pistons, re-plastigauge every bearing. INSPECT the heck out of everything on not just the bottom, but also the top end. take the block in to a good machinist, have them make sure the bore is where it should be for the pistons, if not correct that. EVEN if they are have them re-hone the bores to match the rings you purchased. IIWIYS I would just get new rings, cheap insurance. in doing that, you will have the car down for a couple of weeks and be out anywhere from a set of rings and a hone job with inspection and gasket set, to possibly a new bore and pistons on top of that.
While I was in there I would inspect the bearings for any unusal wear and see if anything needs to be done to correct that, for instance after about 10k I found that my first machinist never actually did a line bore inspection and my bearings were totally toasted all the way across. While I was irritated that I found this, I had the engine apart and could correct it before I had catastrophic failure on a cross country trip or something.
Or if you want to be 99% sure its done right and this time, then go ahead and have a shop do it and maybe see if they will walk through any issues with you.
As far as the diagnosis process, It just good experience, now ALL of that can be applied to any other car you want to look at, from your brand new car to another project you have, and you also have the tools to do it.
Hope that helps a bit as to what path to take from here. No one around me will build an engine, so this is the method that I had to take and I've learned a lot.
Gerald
I ask because if you are like me, and wanted to get the experience, now is the chance to get even more. If you want it sure fire done right, yes take it to a shop and have it built and spend several extra hundred dollars on it to have someone correct the issue, whether it's yours, theirs, or the guy who put the wrong rings in the box.
If you want more experience and want the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself, as I would, then fix it yourself and save a buck or three. after all they are in short supply.
Take out the engine (assume you had the impliments to instal and remove it last time), Tear it down and examine everything MATICULOUSLY. Measure every ring gap, check the alignment of each set of rings on the pistons, re-plastigauge every bearing. INSPECT the heck out of everything on not just the bottom, but also the top end. take the block in to a good machinist, have them make sure the bore is where it should be for the pistons, if not correct that. EVEN if they are have them re-hone the bores to match the rings you purchased. IIWIYS I would just get new rings, cheap insurance. in doing that, you will have the car down for a couple of weeks and be out anywhere from a set of rings and a hone job with inspection and gasket set, to possibly a new bore and pistons on top of that.
While I was in there I would inspect the bearings for any unusal wear and see if anything needs to be done to correct that, for instance after about 10k I found that my first machinist never actually did a line bore inspection and my bearings were totally toasted all the way across. While I was irritated that I found this, I had the engine apart and could correct it before I had catastrophic failure on a cross country trip or something.
Or if you want to be 99% sure its done right and this time, then go ahead and have a shop do it and maybe see if they will walk through any issues with you.
As far as the diagnosis process, It just good experience, now ALL of that can be applied to any other car you want to look at, from your brand new car to another project you have, and you also have the tools to do it.
Hope that helps a bit as to what path to take from here. No one around me will build an engine, so this is the method that I had to take and I've learned a lot.
Gerald
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