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Bad Timing

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63FuturaRag
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Location: Middle Tennessee

Bad Timing

Post #1 by 63FuturaRag » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:27 am

1963 Falcon Futura, New rebuild on 200, C4 trans, Alternator. I can't get my new distributor to seat in the right position. It will not go into the same position the old one was in. Can't get the car started. Car turns over perfectly but won't start. Everything else checks out except the distributor. Is it possible to put the pulley on wrong, so that the notch doesn't line up correctly for timing on a newly rebuilt 200? I cannot use the "thumb" routine to set up cylinder 1 because I do not have any help. Is there another way?

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addo
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Post #2 by addo » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:48 am

Are you able to get the distributor fully seated in the block, even if its position appears "wrong"?

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fordconvert
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #3 by fordconvert » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:09 am

I think what addo is thinking is if the dizzy is not seating (going all the way down in the block) that you need to remove it again and move the oil pump shaft slightly then drop it again. If it is seating and you really want it 'correct' you need to do the same thing, remove the dizzy and move the oil pump shaft so you can drop it in a tooth or two forward or back so now the body of the dizzy will be where you what it. The quick fix if it is seating is to move the spark plug wires so they line up. The dizzy does not know or care where they are as long as they are still in the correct order. This may confuse people and cause issues with wire length but it works fine. You can make your own remote start for these cars so you can do it yourself. You just need a wire connected to the S terminal on the solenoid and when you want it to crank connect it to a battery +. Even house wiring and a light switch would work just be careful of anything you have hooked to the + side of battery when it gets near anything that is grounded. Depending on the vintage of your valve cover you may be able to see the rockers through the oil fill. The position you are looking for is with both valves closed. 180 out would be with the exhaust open. When you find the position with both #1 valves closed thats when you need the rotor pointing at the terminal that has the #1 wire on it, it does not matter which of the 6 that is, they just need to be lined up at that point and in the correct order.

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JackFish
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #4 by JackFish » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:08 am

If the dizzy is indeed not dropping, it may help to "wiggle" the crank a bit back and forth, either by hand on a belt which is easier if the plugs are out, or with a wrench on the crank bolt.
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

63FuturaRag
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Location: Middle Tennessee

Re: Bad Timing

Post #5 by 63FuturaRag » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:39 pm

I couldn't get it to drop all the way down at the same position the old one was. I had to rotate it about 90 deg. to get it to drop. I have heard everyone talk about moving the dizzy one tooth. I have never been able to do this with any of my 3 engines, 170 or 200. The dizzy will go down all the way in only 2 places about 180 degress apart. I can get it down only so far by moving it "one tooth". It won't go down all the way tooth by tooth. By the way, this is a new rebuilt dizzy with the larger shaft for the 200. The 170 had a smaller shaft. I feel like if I could get the first cylinder in firing position, I could fix this problem. I just don't know how to do that. I'm just a weekend mech, not a pro.

Is there no pressure reactive thing that screws into spark plug no. 1, and lights up when the pressure is at maximum?

Need an answer: Does anyone know if it is possible to put the pulley on wrong? This was done by someone else, not me.

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JackFish
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #6 by JackFish » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:26 pm

Oh that's easy!
With the plug out, you just put your finger over the hole and rotate the engine, with something on the crank bolt, or bump with a remote starter. You will feel a distinct puff of air as #1 comes up to TDC.
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

63FuturaRag
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Location: Middle Tennessee

Re: Bad Timing

Post #7 by 63FuturaRag » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:35 pm

read at top.

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fordconvert
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #8 by fordconvert » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:04 pm

The reason a distributor wont drop where you want it to is the random chance of where the oil pump shaft happens to be oriented. On most engines the gears start to engage before the dizzy shaft drops low enough to engage the oil pump shaft. If it wont drop where you want it just pull it out again and use the correct size socket on an extension to rotate the oil pump shaft slightly then try to drop it in again. If you get it the first time you are lucky and need to go to vegas now. If you get it with in 2-3 tries you are doing alright. If it takes longer you are like me and should never go to vegas or you are working on one of the many GM's where it is a slot so you really have to get it right.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

63FuturaRag
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Location: Middle Tennessee

Re: Bad Timing

Post #9 by 63FuturaRag » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:54 pm

OK I appreciate all the good advice. I'll try some of these things. My no. 1 problem is getting cylinder 1 at firing compression. I don't have that third arm to move the fan, turn the crank and plug the hole at the same time. I may have to remove the fan. Maybe I can rig a threaded pipe with a balloon or something. The oil pump shaft looks too small to be the larger one. That could be a problem. The person I got to put all this together is less than zero ear to ear, but he does have an engine lift and I don't. He may have mixed some 170 parts with some 200 parts, and that won't work with the dizzy.

Rinke
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #10 by Rinke » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:44 am

Hi,

If youve got a manual tranny, just put it in 2 or 3 gear and gently push te car around. to rotate the engine.
If you've got an auto tranny, that won't work.

I tried rotating at the harm damper but ended up unscrewing the damper in stead of moving the engine..
I had a problam also locating the dizzy. With me, the oil pump shaft was not sitting in the center position. The side of the dizzy drive was bumping against the top of the drive shaft, so it wouldn't fit propperly. I used some grease to stick the shaft in a rough middel position. That worked.

good luck,
rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe
3 on the tree
170
3.50:1 rear end
Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years
Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

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fordconvert
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #11 by fordconvert » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:32 am

You could take out all the spark plugs but #1. Engine should turn easy except when #1 is on the compression stroke. You could leave #1 loose and it would then hiss as it comes up on the compression stroke.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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JackFish
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #12 by JackFish » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:39 am

Not much clearance in there with the fan.
A remote starter is an invaluable tool for the price (like $10 or so), especially if you're working alone.
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

pedal2themetal45
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #13 by pedal2themetal45 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:09 pm

HI
If you pull out all the spark plugs its not that hard to turn or shouldn't be anyway..
Put a socket on the crank bolt to rotate the motor.. Should be able to do that with one hand.. while holding a finger over the #1 spark plug hole..
OR
you can put a small screwdriver in the #1 hole and watch it making sure it don't bind when it stops moving up or out its at TDC... NOW IT COULD BE 180 DEG OFF DOING IT THIS WAY as TDC comes up twice once for TDC of the compression stroke (which is what you want) and once for TDC of the exhaust stroke.
You can pull the valve cover and watch the rockers.. and when the rocker for the #1 exhaust valve closes watch you crank and rotate it the rest of the way around until it comes up to TDC and you should be on the right one for setting the Dizzy in. If it don't drop all the way in pull it out and rotate the oil pump shaft with a socked just a hair and try again.. AS long as the rotor lines up with the #1 plug wire and the fireing order is right the dizzy does not care where it is pointing you can install your wires in order from where the rotor is pointing.
good luck
tim
the pic links work now. 11/03/06
61 Comet W/200
http://s82.photobucket.com/user/pedal2t ... ort=6&o=12
64 International 4dr. truck w/466
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63FuturaRag
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Re: Bad Timing

Post #14 by 63FuturaRag » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:13 pm

Pedal2 has obviously removed his fan first. No socket wrench will work from above with the fan installed, or he is working with the engine removed from the car.

I have done some more work and will report here. Since I don't have 3 arms, and a remote starter wouldn't do any good because it will NEVER STOP at cylinder 1 compression, I got creative. I got a 3" or 4" pipe from the hardware store with the same thread as a spark plug. Not a perfect solution because pipe thread is variable diameter. The last few threads are a wide enough diameter to fit into the spark plug hole though. I put a small balloon around the other end. The balloon must fit tight, and must go beyond the thread onto the smooth surface of the pipe. This insured that I would see the balloon expand as cylinder 1 got compression. This is not a perfect solution, because I did not remove my fan, and as the fan blades turn with wrench movement, I can only turn the crank about a 1/4" with each wrench thrust before a fan blade hits the wrench or my arm. Then I have to turn the fan until it is not binding, and move the wrench again. I didn't know if this would work, but was glad to see the balloon fill with air briefly with each thrust of the wrench when it got near the firing point. I then knew I was at least in the ballpark. This allowed me to position the distributor in the hole where the rotor would be pointed perpendicular to the fender . I couldn't do it at first, but I happen to notice the oil pump shaft was loose. I pulled it out, stuck it in the distributor, and then put the dist in the hole where the no. 1 plug matched the rotor. As it ends up, the pulley notch does not line up with TDC. In fact, it is nowhere to be found. So the pulley CAN be put on wrong.

I am now able to start the car, but it must have more serious problems than I thought, because it is running so rough. Carb and fuel delivery is good because when I punch the gas, the engine runs faster. Electrical has not been checked with a voltmeter, but I put new terminals on each wire in the ignition system while making sure no wires were partially cut. Oil pressure is perfect (pressure gauge was added). Everything is new: carb, fuel pump, gas tank, all gas lines, dist, coil, spark plugs (gapped), spark plug wires, ignition relay, battery, battery cables, etc.

This has now gone beyond my capability, and I will have to find a real mechanic to sort this out. This is the end of this post. Thanks for all your posts, they were very helpful. It could be the engine rebuild is no good. I will not mention the name of the business here. I'm sure they have done other work that is good. The engine acts just like the timing marks were not aligned, or possibly a tooth has broken and the chain has jumped. It's just a case of Bad Timing.

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