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DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

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DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #1 by 65fback » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:40 am

So after my 'adventures' installing the DSII distributor I've only had bits of time here and there to get the wiring done. That's now complete. The car won't start. It'll turn over but I'm not getting it to start. I've rechecked the wiring a couple of times. I've also verified I get 12V at the + terminal on the coil when in the ignition is in the run position as well as in the start position. I also tried rotating the distributor a bit to adjust timing with no success.

Full list of wiring changes I made:

* ran green wire from 4 plug on ignition module to negative (-) terminal on ignition coil
* ran white wire from the 2 plug connector on ignition module to the S terminal on the solenoid
* disconnected the brown wire from the I terminal on the starter solenoid
* ran red wire from the 2 plug connector on ignition module to the positive (+) terminal on the ignition coil
* cut the pink resistor wire from the ignition
* ran a wire from the run position of the ignition to the positive (+) terminal on the ignition coil

The module is a replacement module for the DSII ignition module. It's got the blue sealing block setup. The coil is a 12V coil 'for electronic systems'.

Any advice of what to check next?
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #2 by rbohm » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:04 pm

well start here and double check the conversion, it sounds right though;

http://www.mustangsteve.com/conversion.html

next i would check to see that you have voltage through the coil with the key on, if you dont then you have a bad coil or no power to the coil, which is your next check.

after that i would make sure your timing is set right. i would also check to see if you have spark at the plugs as well.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #3 by 65fback » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:19 pm

Thanks.

Quick follow up: I pulled the wire from the coil to distributor, put a spark plug on it and grounded it, had someone turn the engine over. I'm getting spark to the distributor. I'll do same with one of spark plug wires from distributor next. Off to friend's 50th birthday party so it'll have to wait.

Thanks for the link.

/Chris
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #4 by rbohm » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:52 pm

65fback wrote:Thanks.

Quick follow up: I pulled the wire from the coil to distributor, put a spark plug on it and grounded it, had someone turn the engine over. I'm getting spark to the distributor. I'll do same with one of spark plug wires from distributor next. Off to friend's 50th birthday party so it'll have to wait.

Thanks for the link.

/Chris


ok since you are getting spark, you dont have a wiring issue, you have a timing issue. unless you are not getting spark to the plugs themselves. if you dont get spark to the plugs, the check to make sure you reinstalled the rotor. many is the time a lot of us on the boards have forgotten something that simple.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #5 by Econoline » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:11 am

I did exactly that when I installed pertronix in my dist :oops: Had me scratching my head for like an hour :bang:
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #6 by 65fback » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:07 am

I'm getting spark to the plugs themselves (well at least the #5 cylinder which I spot checked). Must be a timing issue I rotated the distributor quite a bit both ways without success. I'm thinking I really botched it when I installed the distributor. :bang: So now I'm off to find top dead center for cylinder 1 and try it again. :bang:
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #7 by JackFish » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:09 am

A common problem is the distributor being out 180°.
Make sure you're on TDC on the compression stroke when installing it.
Put your finger over an open #1 spark plug hole and use a remote starter to bump it roughly into position.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #8 by 65fback » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:22 pm

Yeah, pretty sure I'm at TDC for cylinder 1. I bumped it around a couple of times to make sure. Then, just on the off chance I was wrong I rotated the plug wires around 180 degrees (as in moved along 3 positions, not rotated the wire around on the same post.... ;) Still no luck. I guess it's time to take a step back and retrace all my steps (again). I see why so many cars have been sold off because the owner gave up on the ignition.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #9 by woodbutcher » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:54 pm

:hmmm: Even if the timing was off,he would be getting some engine kick back or some backfiring through the carb.Something else is maybe the culprit.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #10 by bmcgc1960 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:13 pm

Im going to guess timing.

When I replaced my dizzy the vac port was pointing straight back (12 o'clock) and the rotor was pointing directly at the #1 terminal on the cap (3 o'clock). The timing mark was right on TDC.

I installed the new dizzy in the exact location and the car cranked but would not start.

I rotated everything around back to TDC and reinstalled the dizzy at 2, 4, and 5 o'clock. Each time with the vac port pointing at 12 o'clock.

The 5 o'clock position was where it would start, and idle smoothly. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the reman dizzy is indexed differently.

The car never backfired, ran rough, or did anything else that would indicate that it jumped a tooth on the timing chain.

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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #11 by 80broncoman » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:02 pm

Is the Electronic ignition conversion the only thing you have done since it last ran?

No NEW Cam?, Lifters?, Rockers?
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #12 by vntgtrk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:19 pm

I'm gonna get castigated by the die hard Ford purists (sounds painful!!! :shock: ) But I've done the GM ignition module conversion on every DS11 car I've owned and a few for my customers.
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/ignitio ... -case.html
I'm not ashamed of it and try to hide it like this guy. I just find a good place and let it show. The wiring lives up to my demand for neat and it's cheap come module time. For the price of new DS module you can get 2 GM units with change left for a coupla cold ones. Keep a spare in the glove box. Murphy's Law clearly states that your ignition module WILL go south when you don't have a spare. And naturally in the middle of Death Valley, 120 degrees in the shade, dark as the inside of a cow and a roaring blizzard is hitting you in the face

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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #13 by Asa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:49 pm

If you think the timing is off, loosen the dizzy and rotate it to the full extent of it's travel, then use a timing light and a friend see if it's roughly in the right area

If it isn't in the right area, and you've rotated it 180, then move the firing order one plug off (put the #1 in the #5 spot on the cap, and follow it around with the proper firing order.) If that doesn't work, move it up to the next spot (#1 into #3.) Continue with this until you go all the way around. Although the #5 and #4 positions are most likely if it isn't 180* out

One of the most common mistakes people make is when they install the dizzy, they mis-stab it one spot forwards or backwards when the gears mesh
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #14 by ludwig » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:04 pm

Oooh. Ditto. The rotor will glide BACK to #1 almost an entire HALF turn when you stab it correctly. So start with the rotor turned to the opposite side and then drop it in.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #15 by vntgtrk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:48 pm

JackFish wrote:A common problem is the distributor being out 180°.
Make sure you're on TDC on the compression stroke when installing it.
Put your finger over an open #1 spark plug hole and use a remote starter to bump it roughly into position.

I've never done that. And I'll never do it again! :oopsie:






I hope

Also if your dizzy is 180 out, the likelihood of even getting a sputter is slim to none. If you're off a tooth or three, you'll get all kinds of backfire, etc. How do I know this? See above. I'll try not to do that again too.

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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #16 by Asa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:02 pm

vntgtrk wrote:Also if your dizzy is 180 out, the likelihood of even getting a sputter is slim to none.

Not quite, when I first got my '67 the dizzy was installed 180 out and I didn't know it. Installed the plug wires correctly and would get backfires out of the carburetor.
That can be a hallmark of a dizzy being installed 180 out if a couple other factors are linked up.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #17 by vntgtrk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:12 pm

Asa wrote:
vntgtrk wrote:Also if your dizzy is 180 out, the likelihood of even getting a sputter is slim to none.

Not quite, when I first got my '67 the dizzy was installed 180 out and I didn't know it. Installed the plug wires correctly and would get backfires out of the carburetor.
That can be a hallmark of a dizzy being installed 180 out if a couple other factors are linked up.

You're correct. But for this discussion I didn't feel it was necessary to bring that up. I even saw a dizzy installed a tooth (or more? can't recall) off and the plug wires put on the dizzy one post off. But that was a Chevy and we all know how they do things :lol:

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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #18 by 65fback » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:16 pm

Thanks for the tips guys. I've already done the 180 degree check (rotated all the plug wires halfway around the cap). Nothing doing. I've taken a step back to square one. I'm going over all the wiring again.

As for the question of have I done anything else to the engine? Nothing. Everything else is the same. Cam, carb et. al are on the list, but I've got more important things to spend my money on at the moment so...
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #19 by Asa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:20 pm

65fback wrote:Thanks for the tips guys. I've already done the 180 degree check (rotated all the plug wires halfway around the cap). Nothing doing. I've taken a step back to square one. I'm going over all the wiring again.

You have spark. Don't worry about square one, you're past that already.
You went 180 out, did you check the next plug before and after?
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #20 by rbohm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:11 pm

vntgtrk wrote:I'm gonna get castigated by the die hard Ford purists (sounds painful!!! :shock: ) But I've done the GM ignition module conversion on every DS11 car I've owned and a few for my customers.
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/ignitio ... -case.html
I'm not ashamed of it and try to hide it like this guy. I just find a good place and let it show. The wiring lives up to my demand for neat and it's cheap come module time. For the price of new DS module you can get 2 GM units with change left for a coupla cold ones. Keep a spare in the glove box. Murphy's Law clearly states that your ignition module WILL go south when you don't have a spare. And naturally in the middle of Death Valley, 120 degrees in the shade, dark as the inside of a cow and a roaring blizzard is hitting you in the face


no issues with the GM module, i used a chrysler module on my old 66 falcon.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #21 by Econoline » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:42 am

It's either timing or fuel at this point. You say you already did the tdc check, but did you follow the advise to use your finger in the #1 hole to make sure your on the compression stroke. If you thought you were 180 out but you were way off, going 180 on the wires won't help and I like to keep the plug wires where they are marked on the cap for simplicity's sake. Your balancer could have slipped and be nowhere near the timing marks at tdc for all you know. I always start by doing the finger thing rotating the motor by hand. Once I know I'm on the compression stroke and right around tdc I make a mark on the rim where #1 is on the cap and stab it so it lines up with the rotor. Works every time. If it won't fire immediately, rotate the dist a bit at a time until it does or the other way if that doesn't work. And don't flood it in the process.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #22 by 65fback » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:42 pm

Finally got back to diagnosing this. Last weekend we took the kids camping. By the time we get done putting the kids to bed at night during the week it's too dark out to see anything. I don't have electricity run out to the shed yet. I'm toying with the idea but I don't much like the idea of what it will do to the tax bill. :evil:

Replaced all the wiring that came with the setup. Some of it looked like it had seen better days. Everything has been Ohmed out and voltages checked at the coil with the key in run position and in start position.

TDC: I did the test by pulling the first spark plug out and rotating the crankshaft by hand. It matches were I think it should be. I hadn't checked the timing mark. I just went and found that (just came in for a bit of chalk so I can make that sucker light up). I had to clean all the built up gunk off the timing marks. :P The marks match up with what the rotor is saying for TDC. I just wish I had checked the position before I pulled the loadomatic. If the balancer has such a propensity to slip after all those years maybe we should add that to the sticky (if we have one) or get it added to the DSII writeup on the Classic Inlines site? Assuming I've got TDC about right how close does the timing have to be to get the engine to start?

I'm pretty sure it's getting fuel. I didn't muck with the fuel system before I pulled the loadomatic. The car *WAS* running before I started the DSII swap. Short of that, I smell gas after trying got start it.

So I think my next steps are going to be:

* re-verify TDC by pulling the plug and spinning the crankshaft around. Who knows, I could have got it wrong the first time
* re-verify I'm getting spark at the coil, then at cylinder 1. I did re-do the wiring. It's usually the stuff you assume is working that is what is actually biting you....

If I'm still not getting anywhere I'll go ahead and spin the distributor 180 and see what I get.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #23 by 80broncoman » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:48 pm

Remember there are 2 TDC positions.

1 ONE with both valves closed (the one you want)

2 And Another where the valves almost closed (NOT the one you want)
This one is also known as overlap TDC both valve may be closed or
part way open depending on how much cam you have.

with Both the marks on the Dampener will line up.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #24 by 65fback » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:12 pm

Yeah, I double checked. I hear a definite whooshing sound coming out of the spark plug hole on the stroke I've been guessing is TDC. I don't hear anything on the other stroke.

Minor issue just happened, and just had a thought about my troubles. "Minor" issue: sparks just flew from the relay, specifically from the mounting point for the wire going to the starter. Subsequent tries to turn it over result in a click or more sparks. I think it tried to turn over once more. Has my relay gone bad or is my starter fubar and drawing too much current? Hoping it's the starter.

As for the thought: I was following the instructions on the CI site for swapping in the DSII. It recommended re-gapping the plugs to .045. I followed the instruction. I'm thinking of re-gapping to .035 for now to see if that is the issue.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #25 by Explorer » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:13 am

One thing I have not seen mentioned. Plug wires on the I6 count clockwise on the distributor cap, not counter clockwise like a V8.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #26 by rbohm » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:05 am

Explorer wrote:One thing I have not seen mentioned. Plug wires on the I6 count clockwise on the distributor cap, not counter clockwise like a V8.


good point, some of us take that for granted.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #27 by 65fback » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:57 am

Ugh! Almost 2 months before I was able to get back to this. I need to put lights in the shed/garage so I can work at night after the kids are finally asleep. :bang: Overly anxious kid == lost evenings. :P

Anyways, took another look this morning. I went and checked the voltage on all the wiring (again). Still looked fine. Then had the epiphany - maybe I just don't have any gas in the carb. I sprayed a little carb cleaner and poured the dribbles I had left over from filling the lawn tractor and turned it over. Started right up, ran rough for < 1 second, then stopped.

So, I have a timing issue now (rough running) - but I can figure that out. And I need to figure out why I'm not getting gas. Car sometimes has the odd behavior of not wanting to start after having sit for some period of time unless I feed it more gas. I'm off to the gas station in hopes that that is all it is and not something more expensive.

Hopefully I'll have it back on the road before the end of the driving season after all.
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Re: DSII Wiring issue on '65 mustang

Post #28 by 65fback » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Car runs. I put a bit more gas in the carb and it finally stayed running. I think in the end early on I had wiring issues - I had smelled the carb flooding for awhile. I haven't tuned the timing yet beyond setting initial to where engine sounds best at idle. Other than that all I have left to do is run the new wire from the ignition switch through the firewall (I currently have it running out the window. I didn't want to tackle it until I had the engine running.

Talk about long summer projects. At least I've gained some experience in the motor.

Thanks for all the advice on the way guys.
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