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Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

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Matthew68
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Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #1 by Matthew68 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:15 pm

Hi Folks,

I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my VI aluminum head (should be coming with the next month) so I'm finalizing my build plans for the short block. It's a stock 68 200 block, never been pulled. Here's my plan...looking for thoughts/opinions based on what you're reading here. I'm not trying to build a race/track car, but just a cruiser that has more pep than stock. I'm located in Cincinnati, OH - around 500' elevation. I run premium 93 fuel almost exclusively, since I don't drive it a lot. I'm aiming for 9.5 to 10:1 compression ratio.


1. Machine the block - over bore/hone as needed, align hone, thorough cleaning, etc
2. New bearings - main, con rods, cam
3. New oil pump, pickup screen, intermediate shaft (all Melling)
4. New motor mounts
5. Keith Black Hypereutectic Flat Top pistons (oversize TBD after machine work)
6. Hastings Cast Piston Rings (they don't sell Moly rings for the hyper pistons, widths are nonstandard 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 4.0mm)
7. Schneider Racing Cams 270-H, 270 duration, 214 at .050", 110 LSA, .485" lift with YT 1.65 rockers
8. Vintage Inlines dual roller timing chain
9. FlowKooler High Flow water pump
10. Full gasket set - do you all recommend the rope rear main seal or the newer material?

I'm planning to reuse my rods, mains, etc. At this time, I'm not planning to balance the rods or use ARP rod bolts. Is this a necessary step? Balancing is expensive - around $250. If I do ARP rod bolts is it necessary to balance the rods?

I also do not plan to zero deck the block based on my current pistons, as the KB hyper pistons have a .030" tall compression height. I'll carefully measure when I disassemble and adjust accordingly, but I may only need to just run over the deck surface and that's it.

Appreciate any thoughts or input - this is my first major overhaul. Once I finalize all the head build, I'll chime in with those details (chamber size, springs, etc).

Cheers,
Matthew
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #2 by wsa111 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:08 pm

Get the ARP rod bolts. That being said you will have to have the rod reconditioned. I strongly advise balancing.
Do not align hone the mains unless absolutely necessary. If so it loosens the timing chain.
If you have the $$ to purchase the VI head, why short cut the bottom end.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #3 by chad » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:31 pm

just follow the "Handbook"'s recommendations. Pretty clear, simple, thorough.

The rod bolts R 1 clear repeated recommendation. No, not necessary to balance just 2 putem in.

See the above tech archive for CI/VI recommendations on machining a block for alu head (& Class II or III?). Also I think U must inform ur assembler or machinist abt the double timing chain, no?

Will U assemble head &/or motor? Who will measure the piston/head interference - decide on deck hight? Can U degree the cam?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #4 by Matthew68 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:42 pm

wsa111 wrote:Get the ARP rod bolts. That being said you will have to have the rod reconditioned. I strongly advise balancing.
Do not align hone the mains unless absolutely necessary. If so it loosens the timing chain.
If you have the $$ to purchase the VI head, why short cut the bottom end.


Bill, thanks for the advice. I don’t want to short change the block, just didn’t want to overkill anything. I’ll make sure align hone is only done if absolutely necessary. I will also strongly think about the balancing too.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #5 by Matthew68 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:45 pm

chad wrote:just follow the "Handbook"'s recommendations. Pretty clear, simple, thorough.

The rod bolts R 1 clear repeated recommendation. No, not necessary to balance just 2 putem in.

See the above tech archive for CI/VI recommendations on machining a block for alu head (& Class II or III?). Also I think U must inform ur assembler or machinist abt the double timing chain, no?

Will U assemble head &/or motor? Who will measure the piston/head interference - decide on deck hight? Can U degree the cam?


Chad, thank you. Yes, I’ve read through them. I will be giving him all parts as he will be assembling the short block. My second child is due in a month so I will not have the time to assemble, nor do I have the know how on the block. On the head, I’m comfortable with it as I’ve removed and replaced them before.

On degreeing the cam - when I spoke to Jerry at Schneider he said they grind with 2 degrees advance so it gets installed dot to dot. Again, this is information I’ll certainly share with my machinist.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #6 by Econoline » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:01 pm

A race engine, not some kind of daily driver?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #7 by wsa111 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:08 pm

If you want more low end you might want 4 degrees of advance??? The wrist pin offset also affects low end, mod-range & top end.
What are your specs on your piston choice?? How much offset??
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #8 by chad » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:35 pm

congrats on the child!

The lill ones R what makes livin worthwhile
B it on my good days or on my bad days...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #9 by xctasy » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:36 pm

Your bore texture needs to be set up smooth . Have your machinist supply Rpk, Rk and Rvk readings from a laser profilometer.If he can't, get another mschinist.With hypers, the bore texture needs to be set up like an EFi OBD-ii engine with 10, 15 and 23 respectively. Ring tension should be 3.2 lb-ft+/-0.2 on the compression rings, and 10 lb-ft +/-1.0 on the oil controls. Crome or ductile iron is irrelevent as long as you follow the run in requirements.This is totally contrary to how Fords bores in the 60s to early 80s were set up rough, with Rpks of 15-20, Rks of 45 or so and Rvks of 55 or so, just like small block Gen 1s. Average Ra has nothing to do with bore prep for a hypereutectic piston. Old specs for Fords 3.3 US pistons were for a different kind of bore texture than we need in 2019.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #10 by drag-200stang » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:21 pm

Forget that dot to dot stuff, the cam must be degreed...That is the only way to know if it is right for sure...Do not build engines to chance.
66 Mustang Coupe
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #11 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:35 am

Econoline wrote:A race engine, not some kind of daily driver?


Eco - as in I’m going too overboard with the build for a daily?
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #12 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:36 am

wsa111 wrote:If you want more low end you might want 4 degrees of advance??? The wrist pin offset also affects low end, mod-range & top end.
What are your specs on your piston choice?? How much offset??


Bill, piston specs in the pic below:
EB04CE2B-108B-4FD2-8C9C-F6117560E763.png
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #13 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:38 am

xctasy wrote:Your bore texture needs to be set up smooth . Have your machinist supply Rpk, Rk and Rvk readings from a laser profilometer.If he can't, get another mschinist.With hypers, the bore texture needs to be set up like an EFi OBD-ii engine with 10, 15 and 23 respectively. Ring tension should be 3.2 lb-ft+/-0.2 on the compression rings, and 10 lb-ft +/-1.0 on the oil controls. Crome or ductile iron is irrelevent as long as you follow the run in requirements.This is totally contrary to how Fords bores in the 60s to early 80s were set up rough, with Rpks of 15-20, Rks of 45 or so and Rvks of 55 or so, just like small block Gen 1s. Average Ra has nothing to do with bore prep for a hypereutectic piston. Old specs for Fords 3.3 US pistons were for a different kind of bore texture than we need in 2019.


Thanks X. I’ll pass this info along to my machinist.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #14 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:38 am

chad wrote:congrats on the child!

The lill ones R what makes livin worthwhile
B it on my good days or on my bad days...


Thanks Chad! Can’t wait to share this car with them.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #15 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:40 am

drag-200stang wrote:Forget that dot to dot stuff, the cam must be degreed...That is the only way to know if it is right for sure...Do not build engines to chance.


Thanks, drag. Since I’m not assembling the engine I’ll be sure he degrees. He’s been a machinist for over 40 years so this should be in his wheelhouse. I may even ask to be present for the assembly just to learn.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #16 by chad » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:11 am

Matthew68 wrote:I may even ask to be present for the assembly just to learn.

Watch echo1955 instead. He degrees like an ol pro.
It takes some concentration so a physical distraction can B frustrating.
Watch echo's (our member's UTube) to participate, then ur rig will B assured of correctness...

Id ask 2X the price (for some1 present while I degree), but I'm not an ol pro @ it!
:twisted:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #17 by Econoline » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:05 pm

Matthew68 wrote:
Econoline wrote:A race engine, not some kind of daily driver?


Eco - as in I’m going too overboard with the build for a daily?


Yeah. Maybe :wink:

Sounds like a cool build. Thats alot of cam, with 110 lsa it's going to be a bit lumpy at idle. What trans are you running?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #18 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:40 pm

chad wrote:
Matthew68 wrote:I may even ask to be present for the assembly just to learn.

Watch echo1955 instead. He degrees like an ol pro.
It takes some concentration so a physical distraction can B frustrating.
Watch echo's (our member's UTube) to participate, then ur rig will B assured of correctness...

Id ask 2X the price (for some1 present while I degree), but I'm not an ol pro @ it!
:twisted:


I’ve watched his videos a few times. I agree there is great information. The hard part for me is, I don’t have the time with the distractions. I work full time, two kids, etc.

Not to mention I don’t have all the tools or know how to do everything. Even after watching the videos I still have questions. I realize Forum members can help but I can’t be waiting days for replies when I have something all ready to go. If I were to assemble myself, it would take me months, plus money in parts (degree wheel, etc). My machinist will assemble the entire short block for $200. Pretty fair, IMHO.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #19 by Matthew68 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Econoline wrote:
Matthew68 wrote:
Econoline wrote:A race engine, not some kind of daily driver?


Eco - as in I’m going too overboard with the build for a daily?


Yeah. Maybe :wink:

Sounds like a cool build. Thats alot of cam, with 110 lsa it's going to be a bit lumpy at idle. What trans are you running?


I debated that myself when I decided it’s time for a rebuild (after VI head purchase and low oil pressure issues). However, almost all of the “performance parts” are about the same cost as stock replacement parts. Pistons are the same price, rings, camshaft, etc all comes out even or +/- a few dollars.

I’ll be running a stock 68 C4. I have a T5 waiting, but I’m still slowly assembling the rest of the swap parts for that. I didn’t want to go to a cam that’s purely for the C4, only to have to pull the motor and drop another $200 an a cam suited more for the manual trans.
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Post #20 by chad » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:07 pm

I should have highlighted:
"...It takes some concentration so a physical distraction can B frustrating...."
abt the cam degreeing.

After 33 yrs as a lill woods wrk truck I have the same dilemma. Mod w/5 speed & the 'new motor'
or wait till the C4 is in shape? It's been down longer then its ever been in these decades (not just the logging off season
but several) so I'll put the new tranny'n motor in at the same time. I may never get to the auto (I'll play w/it a lill B4 giving to my 22 y/o daughter. She has never driven a standard. We'll C how it goes...) in. On the outside chance she doesn't want the rig I'll sell it w/o the C4 install.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #21 by 65-coupe » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:31 pm

You should make 180 RWHP and 200 RWTQ if not a little more with your build. I did a similar build with 10.5-1 C/R with a Clay Smith 274/274 110 cam advanced 4 degrees. I made 166 RWHP and 185 RWTQ. But I had a cracked piston and rings did not seal. So I left alot on the table.

Brian
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #22 by 65-coupe » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:25 pm

Dyno results
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1965 Mustang coupe, SPI Orange with custom TMI interior, 250 DUI, CI alum head ported, 274/274 110 Clay Smith cam, 1.65 roller rockers, Holley 390 4bbl, Lokar pedals and throttle calbe. Street or track front coilovers suspension, CI headers stainless with Jet-Hot ceramic coating, CI Stainless 2" impostor dual exhaust, 17x8 Coys C-67 wheels,

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #23 by Matthew68 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:36 am

I hope to get some good numbers like that!

I now have a dumb question: is there a difference between moly and plasma-moly piston rings? Or is the terminology synonymous? I can't find any "official" documentation anywhere they are different.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #24 by 65-coupe » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:32 pm

Matthew68 wrote:I hope to get some good numbers like that!

I now have a dumb question: is there a difference between moly and plasma-moly piston rings? Or is the terminology synonymous? I can't find any "official" documentation anywhere they are different.


I am not sure either.
1965 Mustang coupe, SPI Orange with custom TMI interior, 250 DUI, CI alum head ported, 274/274 110 Clay Smith cam, 1.65 roller rockers, Holley 390 4bbl, Lokar pedals and throttle calbe. Street or track front coilovers suspension, CI headers stainless with Jet-Hot ceramic coating, CI Stainless 2" impostor dual exhaust, 17x8 Coys C-67 wheels,

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #25 by wsa111 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:53 pm

Both you guys need to get a camshaft with more lift to take advantage of the CI head. However you need longer valves so you can use better valve springs & be able to achieve more than .515" of lift.
The ideal cam would be a solid lifter cam with fast rate of lift. Intake duration in the 264+ area & exhaust 270+ with lift at least .550"
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #26 by 65-coupe » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:20 pm

wsa111 wrote:Both you guys need to get a camshaft with more lift to take advantage of the CI head. However you need longer valves so you can use better valve springs & be able to achieve more than .515" of lift.
The ideal cam would be a solid lifter cam with fast rate of lift. Intake duration in the 264+ area & exhaust 270+ with lift at least .550"


My cam is 274/274 with .495" lift. If I went much higher on a street car might not be fun to driver. Even when I talked with Schneider cams he did not recommend that much for a street car. But it is what you want out of the car. I almost went solid for the 250 build.
1965 Mustang coupe, SPI Orange with custom TMI interior, 250 DUI, CI alum head ported, 274/274 110 Clay Smith cam, 1.65 roller rockers, Holley 390 4bbl, Lokar pedals and throttle calbe. Street or track front coilovers suspension, CI headers stainless with Jet-Hot ceramic coating, CI Stainless 2" impostor dual exhaust, 17x8 Coys C-67 wheels,

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #27 by wsa111 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:54 pm

65-coupe wrote:
wsa111 wrote:Both you guys need to get a camshaft with more lift to take advantage of the CI head. However you need longer valves so you can use better valve springs & be able to achieve more than .515" of lift.
The ideal cam would be a solid lifter cam with fast rate of lift. Intake duration in the 264+ area & exhaust 270+ with lift at least .550"


My cam is 274/274 with .495" lift. If I went much higher on a street car might not be fun to driver. Even when I talked with Schneider cams he did not recommend that much for a street car. But it is what you want out of the car. I almost went solid for the 250 build.

I'm anxious to see the final results on your 250.
In my opinion i would just advance the cam 2 degrees or since its a 250 straight up my be better.
Remember you will have plenty of torque with the 250 compared to the 200.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #28 by 65-coupe » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:52 pm

wsa111 wrote:
65-coupe wrote:
wsa111 wrote:Both you guys need to get a camshaft with more lift to take advantage of the CI head. However you need longer valves so you can use better valve springs & be able to achieve more than .515" of lift.
The ideal cam would be a solid lifter cam with fast rate of lift. Intake duration in the 264+ area & exhaust 270+ with lift at least .550"


My cam is 274/274 with .495" lift. If I went much higher on a street car might not be fun to driver. Even when I talked with Schneider cams he did not recommend that much for a street car. But it is what you want out of the car. I almost went solid for the 250 build.

I'm anxious to see the final results on your 250.
In my opinion i would just advance the cam 2 degrees or since its a 250 straight up my be better.
Remember you will have plenty of torque with the 250 compared to the 200.


That is the problem right now. I need to advance the cam to get it to match the specs. I am going to have a custom crank key made.
1965 Mustang coupe, SPI Orange with custom TMI interior, 250 DUI, CI alum head ported, 274/274 110 Clay Smith cam, 1.65 roller rockers, Holley 390 4bbl, Lokar pedals and throttle calbe. Street or track front coilovers suspension, CI headers stainless with Jet-Hot ceramic coating, CI Stainless 2" impostor dual exhaust, 17x8 Coys C-67 wheels,

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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #29 by wsa111 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:09 pm

Does cloyes off a roller timing chain with broached keyway positions in the crank gear?? Could you get a machine shop to broach several keyway positions on your stock gear??
Have you checked the Damper to see if it zero's out @ TDC?? The 250 has little aftermarket support.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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65-coupe
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Re: Short Block Build Plan - Thoughts?

Post #30 by 65-coupe » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:13 pm

wsa111 wrote:Does cloyes off a roller timing chain with broached keyway positions in the crank gear?? Could you get a machine shop to broach several keyway positions on your stock gear??
Have you checked the Damper to see if it zero's out @ TDC?? The 250 has little aftermarket support.


No roller timing chain. Clay Smith gave me a guy to call and see if he can make crank keyway offset.
1965 Mustang coupe, SPI Orange with custom TMI interior, 250 DUI, CI alum head ported, 274/274 110 Clay Smith cam, 1.65 roller rockers, Holley 390 4bbl, Lokar pedals and throttle calbe. Street or track front coilovers suspension, CI headers stainless with Jet-Hot ceramic coating, CI Stainless 2" impostor dual exhaust, 17x8 Coys C-67 wheels,

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