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'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

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62Ranchero200
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'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #1 by 62Ranchero200 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:22 pm

Greetings Ford Six Fans,

My COVID-19 project is a cam upgrade (from a Clay Smith 274H to a Clay Smith 280H, their largest hydraulic cam), milling the aluminum cylinder head for more compression, mild porting, and possibly carburetion upgrades.

Had the chance to visit the head today at the machine shop and discovered the following:

I CC'd the cylinder head at 55 cc; the machine shop found the same. My goal was to mill the head down to a 47 cc chamber for one additional point of compression; the machine shop milled .056 off of the head to get to the 47 cc chamber.

The intake valves were lapped; lapping was not sufficient for the exhaust valves because the values are apparently not perfectly concentric with the seats, so the valves/seats were reground.

Some mild porting was done, mostly removing small "steps" that existed around the valve seats.

My new Clay Smith 280H cam will have .512 lift with my 1.6:1 rockers; according to the machine shop, the springs will take up to .600 lift before coil bind, but I found out today that maximum lift before the retainer hits the valve seal is about .525. So, the machine shop is removing about .100 from the valve guides. This should open up the future possibility of .550-.575 lift, although the single springs may not handle that much lift correctly (I don't currently have any plans to go beyond the 280H cam).

The valve guides should be cut and I should be able to pick up the head early next week.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #2 by wsa111 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:06 pm

Bob, what is your decision on more carburation??
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #3 by bmbm40 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:22 pm

Sounds pretty impressive. You must have a good machine shop.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 2v, power brakes, rear LS, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #4 by Georgia200 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:24 pm

47cc is a pretty small combustion chamber. Whats the compressed thickness of your head gasket?

Any idea what the hp/tq numbers will be?

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:01 pm

What valve springs are you using?

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'62 (which)250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #6 by chad » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 pm

Bob da Builder?...
Sorry so late to the game.
Where's RichCrearions & rbohm on this cam?
I'd say U can do better w/Schinder on same $ custom ground...good
on da lift tho, bra.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #7 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:46 am

bmbm40 wrote:Sounds pretty impressive. You must have a good machine shop.


I’d recommend my machine shop. The owner seems to understand what I’m trying to do and he doesn’t charge too much (about $500 for all the work on the head). The same shop prepped the 250 short block.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 (which)250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #8 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:50 am

chad wrote:Bob da Builder?...
Sorry so late to the game.
Where's RichCrearions & rbohm on this cam?
I'd say U can do better w/Schinder on same $ custom ground...good
on da lift tho, bra.


I bought this cam several years ago, for a good price, new in the box, from Does Tens. I suspect serious improvements beyond this would require a solid lifter cam.

Thanks,
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #9 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:52 am

pmuller9 wrote:What valve springs are you using?


The single springs with dampers from CI. A larger solid lifter cam would require dual springs.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #10 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:57 am

Georgia200 wrote:47cc is a pretty small combustion chamber. Whats the compressed thickness of your head gasket?

Any idea what the hp/tq numbers will be?


I measured a minimum thickness of .040 with the old head gasket, compressed as much as I could.

I don’t want to be overconfident. I was 157 hp/220 tq at rear wheels with the previous combo. I’m hoping for 180-200 rw hp with new combo.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #11 by xctasy » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:04 am

wsa111 wrote:Bob, what is your decision on more carburation??

Times Two. :-)
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #12 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:59 am

xctasy wrote:
wsa111 wrote:Bob, what is your decision on more carburation??

Times Two. :-)


In order to assess the performance impact of the cam/compression upgrade, first I’ll break it in, drive, and dyno it with the “500 cfm” carb I’ve been running.

Then, either the same type carb modified for more cfm, a Quick Fuel 600 cfm 2-v, or a 4-v. I want some street drivability and decent gas mileage, so 4-v would have to be vacuum secondaries. My thoughts so far are: if I can buy the Quick Fuel 600 cfm, why do extensive mods on the 500 cfm for more air flow? Second, how difficult to tune vacuum secondaries? Theoretical advantages of very large 2-v vs. small 4-v?

Any of these, I will ask Bill (wsa111) to help me tune the carb. I do have wideband and vacuum gauge permanently mounted.

Not ready to delve into throttle body or MPFI at this time.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #13 by drag-200stang » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:54 am

Have you thought about longer valves, like Fast 64 used on his Al head...That would be better?
66 Mustang Coupe
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Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Reality check - measuring head gasket thickness

Post #14 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:33 pm

Greetings Ford Six Fans,

On the initial build, the 250 had a Fel-Pro 7916 PT-1 (composite) head gasket, and I have a new one of those for the rebuild.

I keep seeing a figure of .050" for compressed thickness on this gasket. How consistent is this measurement for new Fel-Pro 7916 PT-1s?

Just as a reality check, exactly how do you measure compressed thickness on a new or used (for reference only, not to reuse) gasket? In how many places on the gasket, and where on the gasket do you measure? Do you go for a snug fit on the calipers, or do you compress it as much as you can with your hand while measuring?

I follow the FoMoCo recommendation of 75 ft-lb head bolt torque for my '74 250, but with ARP main studs, anti-seize, an aluminum head, and ARP nuts and washers, I may not get exactly the same results as I would with an original iron head and head bolts.

I measured the Fel-Pro 7916 PT-1 head gasket from the original build and I can compress the calipers enough to read between .040" and .045". It seems to have been compressed thinner on the valve side, less so on the lifter side. If I don't compress the calipers, it's still thinner on the valve side but close to ,050".

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #15 by Econoline » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:35 pm

What's your compression going to be with this combo Bob?
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #16 by wsa111 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:17 pm

Bob, if you go the 4bbl route, get one with annular discharge nozzles.
The only thing you can do to your 500 is have the throttle shaft thinned. Thats 20 CFM.
Replace the nozzles with proflow annular nozzles & enlarge the venturi to 1 7/16".
Thats better fuel atomization & another 20 CFM air flow.
In 4bbl #'s thats close to 395 CFM.
Image
Image
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I have one with all of the above mods & even comes with a chrome float bowl & removable plugs so you can change jets without removing the bowl. This carb is one i custom built for my spare engine. It has a Braswell road race float & a special needle & seat which supplies fuel below the fuel level to prevent bubbles. Also a QFT metering block with the idle jet relocated below fuel level. This prevents pulsations to the idle mixture with a large cam & narrow L/C.
I really don't want to sell this gem, but I might consider $750.00.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #17 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:48 pm

Econoline wrote:What's your compression going to be with this combo Bob?


Funny you should mention that, I just performed this calculation, resulting in a calculated 10.614 SCR.

Image

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:07 pm

Hi Bob, I believe FelPro states a .050 crush on their web site this would be with using the stock head bolts. I have also seen .047 stated, if your using head studs you should torque them down to their recommend specs this would probably put you closer to that .047 crush. Good luck on the upgrades :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #19 by Georgia200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:23 pm

MAHLE advertises its 3910VC head gasket to have a compressed thickness of 040.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #20 by wsa111 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:01 pm

Georgia200 wrote:MAHLE advertises its 3910VC head gasket to have a compressed thickness of 040.

Thats also a Victor part #. It has a .044" compressed thickness.
I have one on my engine & it seems to seal better than the Felpro.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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'62 Ranchero - 250 - Camshaft dowel pin

Post #21 by 62Ranchero200 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:06 pm

Update:

As soon as I removed the cam gear, the camshaft dowel pin fell into the oil pan. I had to pull the oil pan off to get the dowel pin. The dowel pin is rather loose in both the old cam and new cam (about the same); I can move the dowel pin at least 1/32", and maybe as much as 1/16". Is this OK, or should I replace the dowel pin? The cost is negligible, but with the current situation I don't know how long it will take for a new one to ship to me.

If anyone here has a spare camshaft dowel pin, I will gladly pay for the pin and for expedited shipping.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #22 by chad » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 pm

bettin Matt at VI would B quick (summitt too by Y go that rout).
I am an 'essential' emloyee & everybody I C 'out there' is doin their thing & wantin business.

Doesn't it sit in a 'blind hole' so no chance of fallin out? wouldn't wanna use some 'threat set' ?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:29 pm

Are any of your local auto parts stores open?

What are the pin dimensions?

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #24 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:36 am

chad wrote:bettin Matt at VI would B quick (summitt too by Y go that rout).
I am an 'essential' emloyee & everybody I C 'out there' is doin their thing & wantin business.

Doesn't it sit in a 'blind hole' so no chance of fallin out? wouldn't wanna use some 'threat set' ?


It does sit in a blind hole. I think it’s supposed to be tight, but if loose it could fall out.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #25 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:40 am

pmuller9 wrote:Are any of your local auto parts stores open?

What are the pin dimensions?


Stores will be open tomorrow, but I don’t expect them to have the dowel pin. Summit apparently did not.

It’s 1/4” dia x 3/8” long.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #26 by Econoline » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:33 am

The part is PIONEER # PF-200

It's listed under "cylinder head dowel pin" in parts searches. It has alot of applications. If you go to the pioneer catalog and type in pf-200 under parts search then click on it and select buyers guide it will list all the years and engine applications for the pin.

http://showmetheparts.com/pioneer/
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #27 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:50 am

drag-200stang wrote:Have you thought about longer valves, like Fast 64 used on his Al head...That would be better?


So, please educate me on the advantages of longer valves - I'd have more spring height, allowing more lift before coil bind? I'd have more clearance from retainer to seal for higher lift?

Would need new springs if the valves were much longer, right?

I believe the valve/spring combo is ok for the cam I'm installing (Clay Smith 280H/110). It was five years between the original build and this upgrade; it could be several more years before any further upgrade. Just a carb upgrade could take months to sort out properly.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #28 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:56 am

Econoline wrote:The part is PIONEER # PF-200

It's listed under "cylinder head dowel pin" in parts searches. It has alot of applications. If you go to the pioneer catalog and type in pf-200 under parts search then click on it and select buyers guide it will list all the years and engine applications for the pin.

http://showmetheparts.com/pioneer/


@Econoline,

Thank you for this! There are so many applications (at least, four cylinders and inline sixes, maybe v-6's as well), this gives me hope that it could possibly be at some local auto supply store.

Thank you,
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #29 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:21 am

62Ranchero200 wrote:
Econoline wrote:What's your compression going to be with this combo Bob?


Funny you should mention that, I just performed this calculation, resulting in a calculated 10.614 SCR.

Image

Thanks
Bob


I would ask that anyone who has time would check my math and let me know if I have forgotten anything or made any calculation mistakes. Am also a bit concerned about piston to valve clearance, only in the unlikely event of a timing chain failure (assume one or more valves are in the fully open position while the corresponding piston(s) reaches TDC in that cylinder). I think it would be close but may be OK.

I think combustion chamber will be about 3/8" (0.375") deep now after mill (I don't have the head back yet)
Per discussion here, compressed thickness of Fel-Pro 7916 PT-1 should be .050"
Piston is .005 down the hole
Piston dish is .129 deep (I THINK open valves will fall over dish, there is only about 1/4"-3/16" undished piston rim)
Lift will be .512 with my 1.6:1 rockers

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #30 by 62Ranchero200 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:46 am

Econoline wrote:The part is PIONEER # PF-200

It's listed under "cylinder head dowel pin" in parts searches. It has alot of applications. If you go to the pioneer catalog and type in pf-200 under parts search then click on it and select buyers guide it will list all the years and engine applications for the pin.

http://showmetheparts.com/pioneer/


As I suspected, no local auto parts store stock this or even have it on their web site for special order. It's listed as out of stock by Rock Auto. Vintage Inlines and Clay Smith are my only hope unless some individual has a spare pin. I already know that Clay Smith is running on a skeleton crew and may not be shipping now, even for items already in stock.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #31 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:19 pm

HI Bob, I when through your math and it looks right to me. Let's say the timing chain broke using all your above measurements I get a .049 valve to pistion clearance if the cam was at its full lift of .512 and the pistion was at TDC, what is not accounted for in this is the coefficient of thermal expansion see the below link if you want to dive into theose formulas. A Cast Aluminum head would expand at higher and faster rate than cast iron. My best guess is the valve to pistion clearance would increase some at normal engine operateing temps. In my experience I don't see much of a chance of the double roller timing chain set breaking though. Best of luck on your cam swap. :thumbup: :nod:

:bang: :oopsie: Edited :shock: yes completely forgot about the cam and Rod bolt interference that would happen if a timing chain broke, as in Xctasy's below post. You are already running a duel roller timing chain set though in your 250 aren't you?

Formulas for Thermal Expansion
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/line ... _1379.html
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:10 pm

The valves are at a slight angle so you will need to measure from the head deck to the closest spot on the intake valve.
Then add the gasket thickness, piston dish depth and piston to block deck clearance.

The valve lift is calculated at .512 but the actual valve lift may be different.

I got 10.612 static compression ratio.
The dynamic compression ratio with the 280 cam and the intake lobe center at 106 atdc is 8.4

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #33 by xctasy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:50 pm

See below
Last edited by xctasy on Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #34 by xctasy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:55 pm

bubba22349 wrote:....The Falcon engines are a non interference engine, but let's say the timing chain broke using all your above measurements I get a .049 valve to pistion clearance if the cam was at its full lift of .512 and the pistion was at TDC, what is not accounted for in this is the coefficient of thermal expansion.
Formulas for Thermal Expansion
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/line ... _1379.html


The cam to conrod situation makes a US Ford 200 six and the 250 six both interference engines if the cam timing is not kept to the standard 116 degrees Lobe Center, that's Not the LCA, but the timing BTDC event.

Im an ex Mini A series guy from way back in 1993 to about 1996. The Australians used stadard BMC chain pitches, and the block is mapped out similar to the Ford 144-250 small six.


Since the Australian 200's and 250's used the same kind of Mini A series 1275 and Mike1157's 250 conversion to 5.0 timing gear also used Holden Small Block 253/308/304 Vee-Eight and the Toyota 18R timing chain, this video will help you.

As JackFish found, if the base cam blank is re-pitched wrongly during the cam grinding process, WHICH DOES HAPPEN, then you get rod to cam shaft contact. In the case the the USA 250 timing gear, both the 69-72, and later 73-80 timing gear, the timing can slip.

When checking the cam tiimg, drop the sump, and check for clearance. These engines are most certainly interfersnace for cam to conrod clearance in certain situations. The failure or slipping of cam timing can cause what English copy writer Graham Robson described as "Spectacular Disarrangement's". This was a referenace to an old Dutch Spyker term for Serious Terminal Cam to Crank Contact.

Take a little time out to preview this. The A series ran either a twin row chain, or single row chain, later on, with a tensioner, as yall will know, in serive wear is huge with the Ford single and twin row timing gear set, of any type. Its the nature of a pushrod engine, and Ford, like Morris and later BMC/British Leyland and then Austin Rover, they worked the tolerances on making a Bad Idea Work Well...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rad7cdJ ... e=emb_logo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=rad7cdJmT6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rad7cdJmT6k


Part 2 of 2.

Then go through the basics, this post below is on the 200, but the same principals apply.


See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75618&p=582243&hilit=CAM+TO+CRANK+CONTACT#p582243

You don't have to go so far or worry too much, but just Be Aware that Ford packed a lot of cubic inches in a very small space in the 144-170-187-188-200-221-250 small sixes, and the weakness is that timing chain wear then causes cam to con rod contact.


This is only on the Short deck 187-200 7.803" and tall deck 250 cubic inch 9.38-9.469" engines.

The short deck 200 and all 250's were factory Stroker engines. The rare 187 Argentina engie is an overbored 170 with a four bearing 200 crank, same issue.

Not and issue with the USA 7.803" deck 144, 170 (1960-1964, and 1960-1973)
the Argentina and Australian Medium Deck 8.425" 3.1 liter 188, 3.6 liter 221 (1968-1996 Arg, 1968-1970 Australian)

or tall deck 9.38" Australian 200 (1971-1992).

The 200 and 250's are the ultimate economy engines. Ford didn't make a mistake, they just designed them as inventory filler engines for those who didn't want SBF V8's like the 221, 260, 289, 302, 351s, 400's or gasp, the little 255 4.2. Every year from 1962 to 1983 for the 200, and 1969-1980 in the USA and Canada for the 250, they existed to fill a cost effective gap, and man, where they ever an inexpensive engine to make.

In Argentina and Australia , they were Y block 292 and Windsor 289/302/351 and Cleveland 302/351 step down options.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #35 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:57 pm

xctasy

It looks to me like the con rods are between the cam lobes, same as the big six.
viewtopic.php?p=627749#p627749
Am I not understanding your post?

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #36 by xctasy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:04 pm

pmuller9 wrote:xctasy

It looks to me like the con rods are between the cam lobes, same as the big six.
viewtopic.php?p=627749#p627749
Am I not understanding your post?



Um, no, PM. Its not cam lobe to rod contact. This is not to use JackFish as a poster child, as my mates 1985 EFi Turbo Xflow 4.1 liter Fairlane AIT did exactly the same thing when the auxiliary fuel system leaned out the engine. The result was rod to cam contact after a rod was bent. It used the Buick Regal "Dutweiler" style T-Type/GN Turbo/GNX style Auxilary CFi upstream fuel adder. See xctasy fordsix.com AIT Falcon turbo computer.

The problem is generically rod verses Camshaft. Its the camshaft casting that touches cast iron rods and some forged ones as well. Sometimes the rod bolts touch the cam casting or forging.

Early 144-170 cams have no relief scoops, and the 200/250 engines have interference issues here during cam chain failure.

See viewtopic.php?t=65908

JackFish wrote:Stock cam:
Image

Clay Smith:
Image



JackFish wrote:Image
#1 @TDC
Image
#6 @TDC
Image
The other side of the rod.
Image
Last edited by xctasy on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #37 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:23 pm

Good info!
Thanks xctasy

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #38 by drag-200stang » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:19 am

62Ranchero200 wrote:
drag-200stang wrote:Have you thought about longer valves, like Fast 64 used on his Al head...That would be better?


So, please educate me on the advantages of longer valves - I'd have more spring height, allowing more lift before coil bind? I'd have more clearance from retainer to seal for higher lift?

Would need new springs if the valves were much longer, right?

I believe the valve/spring combo is ok for the cam I'm installing (Clay Smith 280H/110). It was five years between the original build and this upgrade; it could be several more years before any further upgrade. Just a carb upgrade could take months to sort out properly.

Thanks
Bob

Yes on all the above. and more modern spring selections .
See Fast 64's... thread in the Aluminum head forum , he just when threw this and covers it well.
I posted mostly to help spread the knowledge about the Al head and the better valve length for people starting out with bare heads.
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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #39 by JackFish » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:26 pm

xctasy wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:xctasy



JackFish wrote:Stock cam:


I can't even see my own photos anymore. :cry:
Dang photosuckit.
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Yup, I bought another one.
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1999 Dodge Ram 2500

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #40 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:55 pm

:shock: Yes JackFish, that's exactly how I feel about it too! :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update - Picked up head from machine shop

Post #41 by 62Ranchero200 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:07 am

I picked up the aluminum head from the machine shop yesterday. It's been milled .056 (bringing the chambers down to 47 cc), valve guides were machined down somewhat less than .100 (there's an unexpected steel piece at the base of the valve guide that causes issues with machining the guides), and mild porting was done.

Image

I now have everything I need except for the camshaft dowel pin. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the pin was loose (can move it at least 1/16") and fell into the oil pan when I removed the camshaft gear. :bang: Pulled the pan (after disconnecting the steering centerlink and under engine brace) and retrieved the pin, but don't want to use it, as loose as it is. Ordered a new pin from Vintage Inlines Sunday, and so far the pin has made it to the US Post Office in Detroit. It's scheduled for delivery tomorrow night, but I'm skeptical that it will arrive on time. Local auto parts stores don't have it, Rock Auto is out of stock, and my machinist doesn't have one in that size (1/4" x 3/8"). My machinist ordered some from one of this vendors, McMaster-Carr, but no idea how long that will take to arrive.

Warning - Vent: This is a $1 pin (less if purchased in bulk; McMaster-Carr sells 25 of them for $10), not locally available, holding up a $1,000 project; why can't all camshaft and timing gearset vendors just include it whenever they sell a camshaft or timing gear?! To me, this is almost like selling a car without a key, then waiting weeks while someone ships you a key.

Question: would it be safe enough to temporarily assemble with the loose pin to degree the cam? (the oil pan remains off, so small parts can't fall into the pan as I assemble and disassemble).

Otherwise, I'll be cleaning and painting, since I can't really assemble much (fuel pump, timing cover, not sure about water pump [can timing cover be installed after water pump is installed?], water pump pulley, fan, radiator, electric pusher fan) until final assembly of the cam/timing gearset. Can't install lifters until cam is installed for the final time, and can't install head permanently until lifters are installed.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #42 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:22 am

Assuming a 1.00" diameter camshaft snout, every .0055" the camshaft gear can turn on the cam represents 1 degrees at the crank.
That will definitely affect the cam position if gear slips or moves once you degree the cam in.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #43 by drag-200stang » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:08 am

Be aware that the stock pin is not 1/4'' /.250 it is about .256 and .250 is way loose, It is .312 long, but a longer pin would be better.
The stock pin is very hard to pull out of an old cam , as it should be...It is also softer than a regular hardened dowel pin...Maybe to conform to the cam hole and not crack the cam when pressed in at the factory using production practices, not sure.
What ever you do , do not forget to put the cam spacer on, with inside bevel toward cam journal before installing the pin...BTDT :oops:
66 Mustang Coupe
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best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #44 by 62Ranchero200 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:31 pm

drag-200stang wrote:Be aware that the stock pin is not 1/4'' /.250 it is about .256 and .250 is way loose, It is .312 long, but a longer pin would be better.
The stock pin is very hard to pull out of an old cam , as it should be...It is also softer than a regular hardened dowel pin...Maybe to conform to the cam hole and not crack the cam when pressed in at the factory using production practices, not sure.
What ever you do , do not forget to put the cam spacer on, with inside bevel toward cam journal before installing the pin...BTDT :oops:


@drag-200stang,

Thank you for this information! Possibly, the machine shop that assembled my short block did not know that this was supposed to be an interference fit and used a smaller diameter pin (old pin miked as .249). It may be fortunate that I decided to upgrade the cam: if the pin had sheared, catastrophe may have ensued.

Although the camshaft dowel pin is on both Clay Smith's and Vintage Inline's web sites, the size information is not. However, a forum member is sending me a couple of the correct size pins, which I should receive early next week.

Thanks again,
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #45 by drag-200stang » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:50 am

You are Welcome,
I think the the hole and pin are odd sized do not think that there is .006 press fit ,that would seam like to much of a press fit, do not have a cam that is not used to check.
I think that it went like this.
Engineer to bean counter,I want a 5/16'' pin .
Bean counter, No to much money, do 1/4''
Engineer, It will fail.
Bean counter, Make it .006 larger and no more!
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #46 by Econoline » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:19 pm

:thumbup: It's a tight fit but not interference tight. I could have used a slide hammer to get mine out and been ahead, but that was worn in. A new one should need a nudge to seat and be good and tight. The cam is harder than the pin for sure.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Aluminum Head & Cam - weekend update

Post #47 by 62Ranchero200 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:39 am

I received a camshaft dowl pin over the weekend. @drag-200stang and @econoline are correct, the pin is .255, but not an interference/press fit. It's definitely snug; you can push it in with your fingers, but you feel the friction between the pin and the edges of the hole. Most likely, not knowing the full story of this, the machinist put a standard size .25" pin in before, which is why the previous pin was loose and a bit worn.

As soon as I received the dowl pin, started reassembling the cam and timing set, only to see one of the camshaft thrust plate bolts break off in the hole (that really surprised me, it was a 5/16" bolt, but it may have already had a crack I didn't see). Had to drill it out and take the hole to the next larger size (3/8").

* Edit: There is still probably 3/8" deflection on the loose side of the new timing chain, but not as much as the old timing chain had (1/2").

Expect to degree the cam tonight (head off). Plan to degree the head a second time once the head is on. Continuing to clean and paint.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #48 by Soldmy66 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:20 pm

Would it make sense to consider putting a drop of Loc-Tie on the dowel pin?

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Re: '62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Post #49 by bubba22349 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:02 pm

X2 yes and even more importantly the cam timing gear bolt. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Lock-Tite

Post #50 by 62Ranchero200 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:37 pm

I used LockTite Red on both the dowl pin and the camshaft gear bolt, although I am uncertain of Lock-Tite's holding ability on non-threaded parts like the dowel pin.

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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