223 performance build...questions!

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GalaxieInline
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223 performance build...questions!

Post #1 by GalaxieInline » Mon May 15, 2017 10:21 pm

Just signed up for the forum to ask some build questions!!

I'm from Indiana, I have an uncommon 1963 ford 300 (below the base galaxie) with a 223 i6. I have built v8's and love classic engines...I've always wanted to build a six though!!

Here's what we got so far:
stock 223 with clifford 6=8 2x2 intake
-2 weber 38/38 dgas synchronous carbs
-clifford split header dumping into 2.25" dual exhaust w/magnaflows, h pipe, and hidden turndowns behind the rear bumper.
- pertronix ignitor ii with flamethrower 40kv coil and autolite plugs gapped to .045
-ford 300 distributor conversion (223 12t timing gear bored out to fit 300 shaft, 5/16" to 1/4" oil drive adaptor fabbed) ditched the terrible load-o-matic dizzy.

She runs STRONG now, motor was pulled last week and is at a local top-nitro engine builders shop and we plan to do the following:
-clean, flux, check head and block
-turn crank/rods
-shot peen rods, arp bolts
- 60-80 over with aluminum hyperutectuc pistons (engine guy says she can take 80 easy as the walls are thick enough to go 125 over!)
- mild port head, blend ports, deck to raise compression to 9.5:1 if possible, 3 angle valve job, hardened seats and overcut for larger SBC +.100 swirltip valves and heavier SBC springs
-chamfer all oil passages and a new 5/16" melling oil pump
- 265° Clay Smith bumper /higher lift and duration, designed for torque applications.
- fully balance and relieve the motor for smooth revving and ability to stay together up high on a 4 main.


Currently the motor has been pulled and is being torn down and hot tanked and fluxed.
I'm looking for any advice as we plan this awesome project! Shes sure to surprise a few v8's even in the big 'ol galaxie and sure to turn heads at shows!


-Anyone have any tips and tricks that work well for these motors? I've read that they have the same offset combustion chamber that the Y blocks have....and similar valve shrouding issues. Should I be at all concerned with relieving the block/head to try to get the intake velocity up with the bigger valves?
- I can find Keith Black Silv-O-lite's for her, but nothing else affordable...any other common off the shelf Sbf or Sbc pistons work in this motor?
- any affordable H beam lighter rods that will fit this motor?
- what's the best way to about porting the head and getting flow up while retaining velocity needed to make low end torque?

I've done my homework to the best of my abilities...not a TON of info on the 223 at all...shes being rebuilt the up coming 2-3 weeks so any info I can pass along to my engine guy would be awesome!!

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bubba22349
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Tue May 16, 2017 1:02 pm

I used to race the 223's back in the mid to late 1960's! I did a very detailed post awhile back going over some of the things I learned on these 215, 223, 262's Ford six engines (see the below link). Take a look at it and see if there is anything that can help you. Yes you are correct that the head to block on these 223 are like the Y Blocks and they also share a few engine parts the heads also respond to the same porting technic's used on the Y Block heads. There are some other members that made posts on these engines and head flow too, so try using the sites search feature for those. You have a good plan and some really decent parts already. There where also some Hi Ratio rocker arms that were made back in the 1960's by Baker every so offen some will come up for sale. The stock cams can also be reground by some of the Cam Companies Scheider is a very good one. Another great upgrade is a T5 trans swap unless you already happen to have a 3 speed with the bullet proof overdrive (R11) which will let you split the gears (giving you 6 speeds with a simple mod) it will also allow you to use lower gears for a good hole shot while still retaining decent fuel economy. Jack Clifford did a lot to improve these Ford six'es if you can find some of his old tech manuals from back in the 1960's and 70's there is some very good info, but sadly with his passing much of his great info has also been lost and is almost unavailable except from a few old timers that were around back then. There is nothing l liked better than beating those V8's by leaving on them out of the hole, yet the overdrive gear gives you back back some economy and good freeway cruseing speed, truely the best of both worlds. Good luck in your 223 build up. :nod: Edited

Post on 215, 223, and 262's
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=73584&p=568944#p568944

Cam Regrind Service
http://schneidercams.com

Autotec Forged Pistons has about the best price on forged Pistons
http://racetecpistons.com/pages/autotec.php

Post on 223 Head Flow numbers
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=70349
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

GalaxieInline
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #3 by GalaxieInline » Wed May 17, 2017 5:22 pm

Bubba22349, thanks! I've poured over any and all 223 threads I could find on this forum and your information proved to be some of the most valuable! My motor is apart and my engine guy has told me the following:
The bad:
-Rod bearings down to the copper (ouch)
-pistons worn out
-TONs of sludge...well it's a 223 so nothing new there..
-valves were mostly stuck open, seals were halfway up the stems...
-timing chain shot...1" of slop!! God no wonder I could never get her timed right!

The good:
-block is good
-crank only needs .010 to turn it
-rods look fine, will be relieved, shot peened and lightened
-cam looks like an accepably grindable core
-head is straight and buildable and has was fluxed and checked no cracks etc

So basically the bones are good, no bad scoring on the bearing surfaces etc. Water passages look nice and clean too. He's tanking the block for me today.

I spoke with Clay Smith today and they recommended Sealed Power 1011P pistons over the Keith Black ones...can't seem to find anything other than cast For this motor. Unless there's an off the shelf forged that you know of? I called Egge, they didn't have any pistons available for the 223...the guy did say that 254 Y block are close/same.

I'm finding conflicting reports on what the stock rocker ratio is on this motor, is it 1.45? I can't find ANY of those baker high lifts.

Bubba, since you used to race these...would you mind talking on the phone about some of your experiences? You can PM me if so, but if not I understand :)


I also just dropped the valve cover, side plate, timing cover, and oil pan off today to get them chrome powder coated...way cheaper than real chrome and will look pretty good when done.

amodel25
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #4 by amodel25 » Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm

I had a set of forged pistons made for my 254 cu in flathead six at Ross Pistons in California. I sent them an old piston and required bore and they went from there. They even provided rings. A little pricey but worth it. Check out their website.

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bubba22349
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:41 pm

GalaxieInline wrote:Bubba22349, thanks! I've poured over any and all 223 threads I could find on this forum and your information proved to be some of the most valuable! My motor is apart and my engine guy has told me the following:
The bad:
-Rod bearings down to the copper (ouch)
-pistons worn out
-TONs of sludge...well it's a 223 so nothing new there..
-valves were mostly stuck open, seals were halfway up the stems...
-timing chain shot...1" of slop!! God no wonder I could never get her timed right!

The good:
-block is good
-crank only needs .010 to turn it
-rods look fine, will be relieved, shot peened and lightened
-cam looks like an accepably grindable core
-head is straight and buildable and has was fluxed and checked no cracks etc

So basically the bones are good, no bad scoring on the bearing surfaces etc. Water passages look nice and clean too. He's tanking the block for me today.

I spoke with Clay Smith today and they recommended Sealed Power 1011P pistons over the Keith Black ones...can't seem to find anything other than cast For this motor. Unless there's an off the shelf forged that you know of? I called Egge, they didn't have any pistons available for the 223...the guy did say that 254 Y block are close/same.

I'm finding conflicting reports on what the stock rocker ratio is on this motor, is it 1.45? I can't find ANY of those baker high lifts.

Bubba, since you used to race these...would you mind talking on the phone about some of your experiences? You can PM me if so, but if not I understand :)


I also just dropped the valve cover, side plate, timing cover, and oil pan off today to get them chrome powder coated...way cheaper than real chrome and will look pretty good when done.


Glad to hear that all the main 223 hard parts are still in such good condition having a crank that will clean up .010 on a 223 now days is rare. The pistions should be easy to get depending on your budget as the pervious poster stated there are Compaines that can make custom Forged ones like Ross, AutoTec, Venolia, etc. with most you will be able to pick your compression height so you can get to a Zero deck height, plus go with the better more moderen Ring Packs that will give you less friction and longer engine life, things that weren't available back when I was racing them. On rocker Arms you can contact Rocker Arms Unlimted

http://www.rockerarms.com/pages/ford.html

They do offer rebuild services for the 215, 223, 262 rockers and can also convert some rocker arms to a Higher Ratio so you might give them a call to see if they can work with you. The 292 and 312 Y Block V8's of certain years (performance versions Like the T Bird engines) also had high ratio rockers arms I never tried adapting them to the 223 but maybe it might be possible. Maybe I can talk to you on the phone though I really don't have much free time since I started working full time again. So I probally can answer your questions faster here on the site. Good luck on your 223 engine and let us know how your doing on it as you can. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

GalaxieInline
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #6 by GalaxieInline » Sun May 28, 2017 12:16 pm

progress:
-crank turned .010
-rods lightened, relieved (ground casting ribs smooth), new clevite bearings/wrist pins.
-found ARP rod bolts and main studs
- rocker assembly was trashed, found a NOS TRW rocker assembly on ebay for $185 delivered. Not bad considering new rockers alone are $240. Unfortunately, Y block rockers are too short to work on the 223 by about 1/2"!
-head is being worked, engine guy found a way to make a 2.00" SBC stainless undercut swirl valve to work on the intake, he is going to be turning them down and working the bowls, then doing hardened seats and an angle job.

-I found a cloyes heavy duty timing chain/gearset, was going to go with a rollmaster but I dont think ill have any issues with the cloyes HD...should be better than stock.
-new comp cams lifters
-just won a 292 Y Block flywheel (direct bolt on) on eBay for about $45 shipped, going to run this to have access to 11" clutches and pressure plates. Very limited selection in 9.5."
- I looked into having a custom set of pistons made, but it was going to break the budget. I'm not going to be hammering it all of the time so I think the cast will be alright. I found a local place that actually had Sealed Power 1011p80's in stock (.080 oversize.)


Last thing I need to find is chrome rings for 80 oversize...seems a bit difficult to locate...would one of the formentioned companies you sugguested carry some?

lastly, a few questions about deck height:
My engine guy says that the stock comp. dist of 1.858" should be fine even though we are going to be decking the head/block some. Should I advise him otherwise?

is there any reason to take more off the head than the block or vice versa, or is it arbitrary as long as we arrive at the desired compression without valve clerance issues or piston to head issues? I dont know what the stock deck height is (piston to deck that is.)

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bubba22349
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Re: 223 performance build...questions!

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:23 pm

GalaxieInline wrote:progress:
-crank turned .010
-rods lightened, relieved (ground casting ribs smooth), new clevite bearings/wrist pins.
-found ARP rod bolts and main studs
- rocker assembly was trashed, found a NOS TRW rocker assembly on ebay for $185 delivered. Not bad considering new rockers alone are $240. Unfortunately, Y block rockers are too short to work on the 223 by about 1/2"!
-head is being worked, engine guy found a way to make a 2.00" SBC stainless undercut swirl valve to work on the intake, he is going to be turning them down and working the bowls, then doing hardened seats and an angle job.

-I found a cloyes heavy duty timing chain/gearset, was going to go with a rollmaster but I dont think ill have any issues with the cloyes HD...should be better than stock.
-new comp cams lifters
-just won a 292 Y Block flywheel (direct bolt on) on eBay for about $45 shipped, going to run this to have access to 11" clutches and pressure plates. Very limited selection in 9.5."
- I looked into having a custom set of pistons made, but it was going to break the budget. I'm not going to be hammering it all of the time so I think the cast will be alright. I found a local place that actually had Sealed Power 1011p80's in stock (.080 oversize.)


Last thing I need to find is chrome rings for 80 oversize...seems a bit difficult to locate...would one of the formentioned companies you sugguested carry some?

lastly, a few questions about deck height:
My engine guy says that the stock comp. dist of 1.858" should be fine even though we are going to be decking the head/block some. Should I advise him otherwise?

is there any reason to take more off the head than the block or vice versa, or is it arbitrary as long as we arrive at the desired compression without valve clerance issues or piston to head issues? I dont know what the stock deck height is (piston to deck that is.)


When racing my 223 I couldnt keep from breaking the finger pivots of the stock 9 1/2 inch clutches, so often that I then went to a Big Ford truck F500 / F600 flywheel and 11 inch clutch which solved that problem.

Sorry I don't know where your going to find the 223 .080 over Rings except in the old cast iron type. To the best of my knowage the Chrome type Rings aren't made In more than a .060 oversize now. Though you maybe be able use some from a Y Block V8 like for a 272 V8 stock it's real close to the same bore size as a 223. But bored .080 over thats about 3.705 then you might be able to find some file to fit rings, in that case you can try John Mummerts Ford Y Block site, he lists Cast and Forged Pistons and Chrome Moly Rings for a 272 in over sizes up to .060 over so he might know of a sorce for the .080 over rings (I don't know if they are going to be the same ring land width though you will need to call to find out) he also used to carry the rebuild parts for the 223 engines too and has a head porting service. Check out his Aluminum Y Block heads for some tips on what works with the Y Blocks and 223 heads. http://www.ford-y-block.com/index.html

Some people have used the above 272 Y Block pistions in the 223 by using an early 300 Ford six Conecting Rod too (.912 pin size). Did you actually need to bore Your block out that far over size? If not it might be better to keep hunting for the Pistons in .060 or under oversizes.

I don't remember what the stock block height was my best guess is it's around 9.70 inches from the crankshaft center line to block deck, for best accuracy have your machinist check that measurement for you. The stock pistion deck height is going to be determined by the pistons compression height distance of 1.858 plus 1/2 the crankshaft stroke of 3.600 (equals 1.550) plus the connecting rod length center to center is (6.258 to 6.262) added togeather is about 9.666 for shortest Rod lenght and up to 9.670 for the longest then this is subtracted from the blocks height to give you the piston top measurement to the top of the block (down the bore). I also think that stock the Pistons are about .025 to .035 down the hole togeather with the steel shim head gaskets being about .020 thick that they used the quench distance was about .040 to .060 but that was a long time ago to remember so I may be wrong on that measurement. Anyway I usally measure what the stock piston top to block deck height measurement is before beginning the engine disassembly to use as a working measurement to go from.

Yes the deck height is quite important, in that if you are going to use the new style composite head gasket the Quench distance is then about twice of what is was with the stock steel shim head gaskets that the 223 would of originally had. Yes in my opinion it is better to keep the quench distance tighter now days at .035 to .050 so this is much better then to just cut everthing off the head to get to your desired Compression Ratio. With the typical FelPro Perma Torque head gaskets crush distance at approximately .050 then we would have a minimum deck height for better detonation resistance when raising the compression ratio much over stock. Besides decking the block to attain this you could have also offset ground the crankshaft (Rod throws) to gain a little more stroke length too or also maximizing to Rod lenght too sometimes you can use oversize bushing so they can be all matched in lenght too and as long as possible and this to can keep from needing to deck the block as much. In any case the blocks deck should be trued and squared up so that it is parael to the crank centerline too. If you are to be using a steel or copper head gasket then it's a different story all together on the quench height. Good luck on your 223 build up! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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