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Diving in...

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XFlow_Fairlane
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Diving in...

Post #1 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:06 pm

Alright after being heckled by some people I think I am giving in to the MegaSquirt bandwagon.

I think just trying to find room to mount the VAM and messing with the factory ECU is just going to be a pain.....plus I have some 5.3 truck coils, a 36-1 wheel and some 35 lb/hr (low impedence) injectors.

So looking around...

It seems MS-I doesn't control timing?

For running on the stock TFI for now I would need a MS-II and a later upgrade to a MS# to run the 36-1 and the coils (or do I need to go to a 3X for the coils?)

I will be running a full set of GM sensors otherwise though (except for the TFI)

If I get a MS2 and upgrade to a 3 later on I need the larger case too?
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CobraSix
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Re: Diving in...

Post #2 by CobraSix » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:11 am

I think Kevin (Kstang) has delved more into the MS requirements than I for our EFI project, but if you mean CoP from a 5.3 (LS2) then yes, MS3X is required to drive the coils.

Didn't see you mention it, but for CoP, I'm sure you are aware that you will need a cam position sensor in addition to the 36-1 trigger wheel, unless you intend to run them in wasted spark mode. If that's the cause though, I'm not sure you need MS3X at that point since MS2 can run wasted spark.

Kevin and I are still working on our ignition set up. Major component issues have been ironed out and tested at a component level, just working on some assembly details now. Hope to have it up and running by late fall. I have a machine shop ready for the making new housings and new drive shafts so the entire unit will drop into the existing dizzy location without the need for an external trigger.
Slade
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Engine: 200 CI, Oz 250 modified for 4V Holley 390CFM, DS II Ignition, 40kV Flamethrower, MSD Digital 6+
Drivetrain: Cable Clutch, V-8 T5, 8" 5 Lug Rear End, 5-Lug SSBC Front Brakes, 3.40:1 Posi

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Re: Diving in...

Post #3 by E4ODnut » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:22 am

MS1 Extra will control ignition as well.

I use the V2.2 board with the 908 processor, a custom daughter board for my own features and custom code, but only because I'm comfortable with Motorola assembly language and don't speak "C". MS2 and MS3 are written mostly in "C". If you don't intend on modifying the firm ware, then I'd suggest that perhaps MS2 or MS3 will do more tricks for you.

Matt Cramer at DIY Autotune is very knowledgeable and helpful. He also monitors the MS Extra and MS EFI forums and is a great source of information.

Hope this helps.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Diving in...

Post #4 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:53 am

I was planning on running a 2.3L cam sensor (when I get that far) or just settling for wasted spark.

I thought the MS3 could run coils but not directly (IE they need their own coil drivers like the LS coils have)
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Re: Diving in...

Post #5 by rocklord » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:45 pm

XFlow_Fairlane,

I've got an assembled MS2 with the MC9S12 processor daughter card I could deal with you on. Also have the stimulator board and relay board.

Just let me know
Dan

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Re: Diving in...

Post #6 by E4ODnut » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:20 pm

There is no need to run GM sensors unless you prefer to run them. MS can handle all stock sensors just fine.

I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about your project. What engine do you have and what do you want to do with it?
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Diving in...

Post #7 by CobraSix » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:41 am

MS3 can run Coils, but only in wasted spark. You need the MS3X for sequential and COP functions. I'll point kevin to this thread. He's done more research on it for us.
Slade

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Engine: 200 CI, Oz 250 modified for 4V Holley 390CFM, DS II Ignition, 40kV Flamethrower, MSD Digital 6+

Drivetrain: Cable Clutch, V-8 T5, 8" 5 Lug Rear End, 5-Lug SSBC Front Brakes, 3.40:1 Posi

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Re: Diving in...

Post #8 by XFlow_Fairlane » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:47 pm

As it sits right now I have a 250 Australian crossflow backed by a T5 with the factory EFI setup.

The stock intake has been replaced by a sheetmetal intake (well 75% finished just needs finished welding as it was tacked to check fitment) I am using a LS1 thorttle body on the intake (so GM TPS and idle control)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65721

I just finished a EFI 350 in my S10 (using stock GM electronics) so I have 1.5 extra engine harnesses with sensors (IE a nice sized pile to build from)

parts I am working on to the motor as we speak...

.57 trim Turbonetics hybrid
35 lb-hr low impedence injectors
38mm wastegate

Parts I already have or are in the mail as we speak
36-1 wheel and pickup (no mounting for it YET)
6 gm truck coils with brackets and harness
GM boost controll solenoid and pigtail
Bosch 255 lph external pump
ford DIS "6 pack" of coils.


Half the reason for going to the GM setup is to keep the stock aussie harness uncut (I have a couple spare boxes and air meters and even a stock airbox I coudl maybe resell on their own or with my other aussie moto) and I already have them (plus I can rob spares off my truck or just carry one set of spares to cover both cars) Going boosted I need a way to tune for it and would also like to ditch the factory air meter setup (it is pretty darn bulky)

So what I need right now from a MS is:

1. TFI input for the tach signal
2. Single coil control
3. GM stepper motor control (I think it is a stepper motor being like 4-5 wire)
4. Boost control (not totally needed but would not mind it right now)
5. E-Fan control

for the future:

1. 36-1 wheel input
2. Cam sensor input
3. Sequential injection
4. Coil Near Plug
5. AC cut-off?
6. maybe some of that fancy MS launch assist or nitrous control (I could just bolt on a LS plate kit)

Oh as far as a cam sensor goes....

I am planning on having the motor rebuilt once I get the car back together and sorted out (or if I have a tuning mistake) with forged pistons and some beefier rods, studs and a cam for the turbo/efi. When this happens I was planning on having the dizzy shaft hole reamed out for a 200 shaft size so I can put in a 2.3L OHC cam sensor (will just require a gear swap.....did this 5 years ago with a TFI dizzy already)

I guess I am just debating at this point if a MSII really can meet all my current needs or if I should go all out for a MS3 out of the gate. It will be more money upfront but saves me like $150 over upgrading later on.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #9 by E4ODnut » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:42 pm

At this point I'd suggest that MS2 would do just fine. Having said that, if it were me, I'd spend a bit of time on the MS Extra Forum and post your situation. James (JMSCortina) is a major developer of MS3 and would be best be able to advise you on what would probably work best for you in the long run.

Megasquirt has evolved a lot since the time I first got into it with MS1. I'm really not into the latest developments because I have a lot of time and effort invested into my custom features for the older system and it does what I want it to do. The newer stuff is most definitely better, so check into it.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Diving in...

Post #10 by MustangSix » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:04 am

MS II will do everything you need unless you want sequential injection. I'm not entirely sold on SEFI except as an emissions strategy since it's only effective at idle up to a couple thousand rpm.

MS II will control an idle stepper motor, but only as a fast idle device. It won't do idle speed control. It can be used to run either EDIS or DIS distributorless ignition. It has outputs to run various things like fans, water injection, etc....basically it can be programmed to turn on/off pretty much anything based on any combo of time, rpm, MAP, temp...whatever. It can do boost control by opening an electrically operated blowoff or exhaust wastegate. You could even use one of the outputs to turn the damn radio off when you get into boost! Or turn on a warning light when you hit a certain boost level.

The best documented distributorless ignition setups use a 36-1 wheel and an EDIS to fire a coil pack. You would retain the distributor shaft just to run the oil pump. A standard coil pack provides quite a wallop and will easily handle your boosted motor. The pickup also provides all the engine timing and speed info to the MS. If you were doing sequential, you would need a second pickup for cam timing.

I don't know if MS II can do COP or individual coil-per-plug, but I'm sure someone is trying it.
Jack Collins

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Re: Diving in...

Post #11 by CobraSix » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:51 am

You need MS3X for coil on plug and coil near plug. You also need it for SEFI, but my understanding right now is that MS3X board can plug into an MS2. Again, I'll get Kevin over here and answer, as he's done our MS research for our SEFI/COP joint project.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #12 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:13 am

I do like the SD card datalogging of the MS3 and having a USB cable instead of a serial (I have a serial adaptor but just one less cable to have in the car)

also I think MS2 can only do EDIS with the stock ford EDIS box and Coils where MS3 can direct drive a coil and MS3X can direct drive multiple coils.

If you can put a X board on a MS2 that would be handy but I just don't see how it could (since it provides and aditional DB37 and the MS3 mounts in a larger case)
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Re: Diving in...

Post #13 by Kstang » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:05 pm

You need to have the MS3 daughter board to run the MS3x card. That will give you logic level drivers for each coil if you wanted to do C(O/N)P. With out the MS3x board you can do wasted spark C(O/N)P it just requires a bit more wiring.

MS2 does EDIS and does it quite well. EDIS is a well documented method of getting ignition through megasquirt. My issue with EDIS is having a delicate sensor down near the belts. If a belt breaks I don't want it taking out my timing. Also a lot of people will turn down their outer most v-belt groove and tack the 36-1 wheel on the outside of the balancer. I don't see how this does not introduce mechanical slop in the system, since its mounted on flexible rubber) which could throw off timing. Say your ac kicks in or power steering pump kicks on. You have now added an external force to the pulley that could throw off timing. This could be solved using the puller holes and some standoffs but I question the stability and long term reliability of that method.

With a trigger wheel and cam sensor you can get true C(O/N)P and sequential fuel injection. I think we are all in agreement that the LS2/truck coils are awesome and sequential is the cherry on top of MPFI.

Kevin

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Re: Diving in...

Post #14 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 pm

I would just go MS2 right now but up front as a complete kit the MS3 is $100 from diy autotune. to get the MS3 board and the MS3 case I am looking at $250 over the MS2. $150 buys alot of good fast parts (or say pay my machinist to turn me a hub for mounting the 36-1)

I agree the MS2 meets my needs for the next year but I think I will outgrow it very quickly.


PS got word this morning I got ALL of my last 5 years working as a engineer rejected on the TN Pe exam application so no more studying for me and my $270 exam fee refunded to cover a good chunk of my MS3 purchase.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #15 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:42 pm

my 255 lph bosch inline pump showed up today. I plan on ditching the single bolt clamps for a couple of t-tbolt clamps on a fabbed bracket to hold the pump to the car (along with some rubber isolators)

boost solenoid should be in soon too.

Dropping the intake off in two weeks for final welding. I talked to my guy nad might be having a simple hub made for the MS (I have a stock ford 36-1 and pickup and might have a hub turned with screws to clamp it down so it can be adjustable.....or a press fit since I have a press)

a new 2.3L cam sensor is only $25 (body and all)
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Re: Diving in...

Post #16 by Emerald 74 4X4 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:03 pm

Kstang wrote:You need to have the MS3 daughter board to run the MS3x card. That will give you logic level drivers for each coil if you wanted to do C(O/N)P. With out the MS3x board you can do wasted spark C(O/N)P it just requires a bit more wiring.

MS2 does EDIS and does it quite well. EDIS is a well documented method of getting ignition through megasquirt. My issue with EDIS is having a delicate sensor down near the belts. If a belt breaks I don't want it taking out my timing. Also a lot of people will turn down their outer most v-belt groove and tack the 36-1 wheel on the outside of the balancer. I don't see how this does not introduce mechanical slop in the system, since its mounted on flexible rubber) which could throw off timing. Say your ac kicks in or power steering pump kicks on. You have now added an external force to the pulley that could throw off timing. This could be solved using the puller holes and some standoffs but I question the stability and long term reliability of that method.

With a trigger wheel and cam sensor you can get true C(O/N)P and sequential fuel injection. I think we are all in agreement that the LS2/truck coils are awesome and sequential is the cherry on top of MPFI.

Kevin


I run EDIS with MS2 and it works very well. I have not had any issues mechanically or electrically with the system. Any issues I have had were my own parameter/strategy programming errors. Super easy to install. The hardest part is figuring out where to stat with as far as an ignition table/map is concerned.

Also, like you said, running a 36-1 tone wheel from the rubber mounted balancer is NOT a good idea, which is why I turned the outer groove completely off, down to the balancer hub, to make room for the wheel and so that I get a consistent, accurate reading. The tone wheel is held in place with 4 set screws started from the inside of the balancer hub and pushing out against the inside diameter of the tone wheel. This gives me infinite and easy adjustability. So far I have not had a lick of trouble from it mounted in this fashion.

The VR sensor that Ford uses is quite robust physically, and with it not very close to the belt, I have no worries of it getting damaged. It is also partially protected by the heavy bracket that I fabbed up. It kind of shields it from the rotating parts.

I think depending upon the complexity and application of your project, EDIS is a great way to start, but if you want more precise control for each cylinder, coil-on-plug is the way to go. I want to upgrade to MS3, but I would not immediately switch to coil-on-plug. I like the robustness and ease of installation and operation of the EDIS. The 6 pack coil isn't very hard to mount either.
1974 Ford F-250, Turbocharged and Intercooled 300, Megasquirt Fuel Injection and Ignition control, EDIS, 7.8:1 compression, Harland Sharp roller rockers, Crane 284/272 cam, mild port/polish carb head - 194/1.60 valves, EFI manifolds into turbo - 3.5 inch to muffler - dual 3 inch out the back.

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Re: Diving in...

Post #17 by CobraSix » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:53 am

Bummer on the PE exam. I had similar worries when I sent my application in. Had 9 years of military engineering experience, which I wasn't sure they would count. Luckily I had 3 years of private sector as well.

Kevin and I are working on a project to eliminate the need for a balancer mounted trigger. if it works as designed, it will provide for SEFI and COP abilities. Hopefully we will have it up and running soon for some prototypes.
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Drivetrain: Cable Clutch, V-8 T5, 8" 5 Lug Rear End, 5-Lug SSBC Front Brakes, 3.40:1 Posi

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Re: Diving in...

Post #18 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:45 am

Well I ordered a whol epile of TXL 18ga wire in various colors.

i also have 3 of those 22 pin weatherpack bulkheads coming.

all my GM sensors and plugs have been rounded up along with a TFI plug.

I figureded no matter what MS I go with a majority of wiring will be the same. I know I may not need more then two bulkhead connectors (one will be for chassis wiring) I had a good price on them so figured it couldn't hurt to have an extra on hand.

once the wiring shows up I will prob start in on the enginebay side of the harness. I will prob do it like the harness I made up for my truck and wrap each sensor bundle on its own and then ziptie them all together (expandable braided cover) makes it easier to trace things back out and can wire up in sections pretty easy (IE run everything for the TPS....then move on to injector wiring....)

I still need to rewire under the dash in the car and still debating on a fuseblock setup. I have a couple stackable 4 circuit blocks I could use for the car (you can hang a relay off them too) but also found a nicer through panel mount fuse block (would give a cleaner look and is a little thinner)

I picked up a 3G alt this weekend so I get to work on that conversion too.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #19 by XFlow_Fairlane » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:30 pm

there is a sale until friday at midnight for 18% off on DIYAUTOTUNE.com. MS3 being ordered tonight.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #20 by CobraSix » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:23 am

hmmm...gotta check that out.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #21 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:33 pm

Ms is shipped and will be here on monday. Also getting my weld els for the header on monday and my flanges. I think mid week the downpipe shows up so then i can also get started in on that once I figure out my header design
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Re: Diving in...

Post #22 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:26 pm

MS is here!!

Started building my board this afternoon. need to do some jumpers and all now before I can test the power supply but I think it is time for dinner and a beer I think.

Going to take advice of a friend and print out the build manual and then line out or highlight as needed for what I need.

hoping to have a functional board by the weekend....or at least close to it.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #23 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:30 pm

about finished on the assembly. I have powered it up and ran the first two rounds of checks successfully.

I need a resistor for the ignition mod and then I am ready for the final check before popping in the MS3 daughter board.

Now to build a harness....
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Re: Diving in...

Post #24 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:55 pm

Finished the board up and powered it up this weekend.

ITS ALIVE!!!

I got it speaking on the USB cable and started playing with my file. I still need to finish building my harness for this thing but I am getting closer. I think I am getting close to just having a good weekend terminating wires and running checks and I should be able to fire this motor up (or give it a try)

Sadly it will have to be sans boost and turbo for now (need to mod the oil pan for a drain and work on some clearancing of the swaybar and centerlink with the pan just BARELY touches)

I have a goal of having this fired up by thanksgiving and maybe "driveable" by the end of the year (which means I need brakes, a front suspension, and to finish the cable clutch setup) If I can do a glory limp aroudn the block and at least get some logs and get a better tune loaded so when I get it all back together it will have some bugs worked out then I will be very happy!!
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Re: Diving in...

Post #25 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:04 pm

well figured it owuld be time for an update....

WOW I have had this MS3 box for like a year and STILL is not in the car....

I had a change of plans and to pick up some room under my intake I am going to the cam sensor and GM coil packs. I will be having my guy makeup a mount for a 36-1 on the crank and I will be picking up the 3X expansion board it looks like.

The big hold has been that I am going into a full rust repair on the unibody instead of just some of the cosmetic stuff and made the decision to put off wiring the car until it is out of paint so I can do it in one clean session. I have been collecting more and more parts for it all and am getting some of the preliminary stuff in like a couple 22 pin bulkhead connectors and mounting of the MS box.
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Re: Diving in...

Post #26 by XFlow_Fairlane » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:16 am

well I guess it is time for another update...

I got my 36-1 mount but still need to do the pickup mount.
had a -8 fuel rail made up to replace my stock one.
I still need to get the MS3x board and figure out the wiring. I had bought the weatherpack bulkheads but I think I might change over to amp seal stuff since it is smaller/cheaper. I am also looking into weathertight enclosers to maybe move the MS3 under the hood to eliminate most of the through firewall wiring.
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