All Small Six 170- Build or Not?

[Rev.LowBuck]

I recently scored a purported 200 and C4 for next to nothing. I was in the middle of a move so I grabbed it and stuck it in a friend's barn, didn't even really look at it. Then my 144 died a terrible death, which ramped up the schedule for building my 200. I went to take a look and discovered not a 200 but a 4 main 170.
The Upside- yep there's a C4 hanging off it
The head (uninstalled) is a large log from an early 70's 200/250
Cylinder bores are clean, virtually no ridge at the top
The Downside- It ain't a 7 main 200

I'm considering abandoning my dream for a hot rodded 200 and just going for a warmed over 170. I'd appreciate it if y'all would read over my proposal and tell me if you think it would be worth my time and effort. The engine/trans will go in a '63 Falcon 2dr sedan. I'm not thinking race car, but I would like something that is fun, makes the right rumbly noises and gets out of it's own way.

Provided the bottom end is OK (I won't spend $ on machine work for the block, I'll just move on and find a 200 to spend money on)
Garage rebuild of rings and bearings
Dura Spark 2 ignition...maybe HEI
Headers
Machine the head for a compression ratio of 8.5-9.5:1
Machine the head to take a Weber 32/36
I'll get the valve seats done and do some mild porting
My biggest question is cam. This refresh will have drivability/torque as the main point of the exercise. Can I do much better than the stock cam for this kind of project?

Other suggestions are appreciated

Thanks

 

[bubba22349]

Sure thing the 170 is a really good engine with plenty of potential you will really like its power and torque increase over your old 144, and don't worry about those 4 main blocks they can last just fine especially if your planning to use that C4.

That's an excellent idea on the budget "Garage Rebuild" with new rings, Rod and main bearings, and gaskets if you pick the right re-ring kit you could do that short block for around the $125.00 to $175.00 range. Optionally you could also add a new Melling oil pump, a new set of Cam bearings if there needed (but a good idea if your going with that new Cam, plus a set of new freeze plugs and a can of paint. You will be in it for very little money on a quick overhaul and then keep on the lookout for a 200 six short block. Good idea on the large log head rebuild then you can still swap that over to 200 someday too.

Note that most everything in the way of mod's that will work on a 200 six will also give you very good results with the 170's too, so yes a newer updated Camshaft is a very good move. When I was a kid there were lots of those Hot Rodded 170's running around with the 3 X 1V carb setups. 170's like the 200's run well with a 8.8 to 9.2 to compression ratio's on regular 87 to 88 fuel and if you want to run even higher grade fuel than 9.5 to 1 is doable. Please note that for the best results the block should be Zero decked to keep the Quench Desistance in the sweet spot.

Optional Side Note: One thing that's not often done is if you can score from one of the first year 200 Six's these were mostly only offered in the 1963 1/2 to 1964 1/2 Fairlane's and some were also offered in the higher trim level 1964 Falcon's Futura's and possibly also in the higher trim S22 1964 Comets). These 200 Crankshaft's are probably quite rare now days yet every so they often they come up. Still they were also a 4 main crankshaft that will drop right into the 170 or 144 4 main blocks, and then you would still use the same 170 length Connecting Rods, or also The 200 Connecting Rods they both are the same length. This exact rotating assembly was used and offered in the Argentina Falcons at one time (likely around late 1963 or in the 1964 year models?) to make their 187 cu. in. Engine simply by just boring out the 170 block to .060 over making it a 3.560 bore and used with the 3.126 four main 200 crankshaft. I have not had a chance to research or find out the info yet on what a 170's Piston's compression height (C. H.) is but my best educated guess is that the combo would need to have the 1.511 C. H. just like is used for the Ford 200 Six uses or is very close to it. In any case you could then end up with a 181 to 187 cu in. short block (and maybe more if there are some oversize Argentina spec Pistons available) depending on the final bore size. This mod though possible probably isn't going to stay within your lower budget rebuild. This Info has now been Up Dated with more info from my current research.

Being a 4 main 170 I am assuming that it's about a 1961 to 1964 170 short block check out your Casting Numbers to verify what your working with. If that turns out to be the case then the DS II and any of those cheap clone type HEI's aren't going to fit into your block without some modding. V. I. Parts Dose have a custom DUI available that fits in these early blocks that used the smaller 1/4 inch drive oil pumps, there was also a Bosh electronic distributor used over in Australia that fits these early blocks too. But if you want any of the other 1965 up distributors than you need to machine or ream out the pilot hole in the block or cut down the Distributor shaft to be able to fit so then you the newer larger diameter distributor's center shaft along with a 1965 up 5/16 inch drive oil pump. If your Block turns out to b a 1965 up Short Block than the Later Distributors are a drop in without those above Mod's. Best of luck

 

[Rev.LowBuck]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Bubba.
Not a bad trade for a case of beer!
Casting # on the block is C8DE with 3 freeze plugs, My "Falcon 6 Performance Handbook" says that number should be from a '68 Falcon, so I don't expect dizzy fitment issues.
Casting # on the head is D0DE-A Handbook says '70-'75 200 or 250 so it looks like I got lucky on the head. I'll swap the adjustable rockers from the 144. I can't abide the idea of a 2bbl adapter. I know lots of people do it, but opening up the intake bore to match makes a lot more sense to me. 3 X 1 carbs look so very cool...but I don't think I want to sign up for what I assume would be a lot of fiddling to keep it happy.

I'll probably make a call to someone at Clay Smith to discuss cam options.

Making a stroker with a 200 crank sounds interesting but yeah, I'm sure finding one would be a lightning strike.

Will keep posting, but not very soon, lots of other stuff to get done first.

 

[pmuller9]

I'll probably make a call to someone at Clay Smith to discuss cam options.

Please do yourself a favor and talk with Jerry at Schneider cams instead.

 

[bubba22349]

Yes that's great that it's a newer 1968 block that opens quite a few more options for you and you certainly got a very good deal for all those parts. I never really though it was that much work to keep the Tri Power Carb's working and in good tune but I used to work on lots of Muti Carb engines at my shop. If you don't mind taking a few pictures of your later 68 block when you get it apart that could be good to get some more info on those newer 170 blocks.

You could open up that carb hole to 2 to maybe 2 1/8 inch it doesn't have to be round it could be an oval favoring the longest parts of the log just be sure to leave enough for a good gasket seal, then also put a generous radius on the bottom edge of the hole leading into the log. At that point you could then use one of the better 2V to 1V carb adapters kind of like the V. I. one to get much closer to what a direct mount carb would produce in H. P. X2 yes check with Jerry at Schneider Cam's they are excellent. Well like lots of things the prices on the ReRing Kits have went up considerably, here one company's kit has good quality parts and if you want other parts added they will make you a custom kit, https://www.cleggengine.com/engine-...2-8l-re-ring-kit-main-bearings-1961-1972.html

Best of luck

 

[drag-200stang]

Tell me something, does the chamber look like a bathtub or a bathtub with one side pushed down?
They used the C8 casting design number till the end of the 170 in 70 something, so it probably is newer than 68.

 

[bubba22349]

X2 until end of the 170 engine production at end of the 1972 model year. You can tell the exact month, day, and year that the part was cast at the Ford Engine Foundry by the Casting Date Codes on the head and block they look like a small metal tag cast into the part with a straight blade screw head at each end plus they will have 2 to 3 numbers and 1 letter on them.

 

[78_200_C4]

To install a "Dura Spark 2 ignition...maybe HEI" without spending more than a used 200 7 main block might cost you would want to convert the 170 block to a 65 + 5/16" drive oil pump and pickup.

 

[TrickSix]

I saw once on eBay an early 70s large log 170 head, with smaller combustion chambers than the 200 variant. I'm not sure what the numbers are on such a thing. What do the combustion chambers look like on your new head?

 

[powerband]

Low miles C8DE 170 with a DODE head was in a rusty 71 Maverick. I used the complete stock block with a D7 head cut .070 to 48cc chambers and fortified with 302 valves/springs and ARP head bolts and a steel shim head gasket for a SCR around 9.5 : 1 .

With the higher compression, a H/W 32/36 carb on a 2bbl adapter and Hooker headers the 'mild' 170 is more than perky with an OD T5 (NWC) V8 tranny and OEM 3.50 : 1 rear gears. Has run excellent for over ten years with no problems and plenty of fun carving back roads or cruising at low RPM's at interstate speeds.

BTW - The C8DE will be drilled for small bellhouse C4 or manual Toploader bell for upgrades.
C8DE block will accept the DS II dizzy with no mods (I planned on replacing the 'points' dizzy when it failed - so far still fine...)

" large log 170 head, with smaller combustion chambers than the 200 variant"
> Yes the DODE heads have the 'stepped' or 'closed' chamber heads for smaller volume.



Have Fun

. .
OEM C8DE Ford 170, Precision Machine D7 Head . Oversize intake valves/1.50 exh with- silicon springs and HD retainers, . Milled head w/ Steel Shim Gasket. CR= 9.5:1. H/W 5200 - 2.8 series (32/36) progressive 2Bbl carb., Exhaust ¾ siamese port divider, Champion racing spark plugs, Contact Point/Condensor distributor, Diaphragm Clutch. T5 5speed Overdrive tranny, Short throw Hurst Indy shifter, OEM 3.50: rear, Shelby sway bar, Addco rear sway bar , Fabricated subframe connectors / crossmember, Hooker 6601 dual out longtube headers. Shoulder belts front and belts for three in rear, Dual chamber master cylinder, OEM wide-wagon brakes, dual air line rear shocks, 14” wheels & tires, Countersprung Tailgate, Original tube radio …

 

[Rev.LowBuck]

Tell me something, does the chamber look like a bathtub or a bathtub with one side pushed down?
They used the C8 casting design number till the end of the 170 in 70 something, so it probably is newer than 68.

I saw once on eBay an early 70s large log 170 head, with smaller combustion chambers than the 200 variant. I'm not sure what the numbers are on such a thing. What do the combustion chambers look like on your new head?

I can't remember for certain, but I believe the chamber was definitely flatter on one side than the other as drag-200stang described. Should have taken a pic, duh. Again, I'm storing this in a friend's barn until I get it home...which should be soon, like this weekend/early next week.

I'll don't think this in the original head for this motor... but you guys have way more experience so I'm ready to be surprised.
The head is off the block, machined surfaces were taped off and everything has fresh paint. The chambers are really clean, like no soot bare metal. The lifter valley is painted with the valve springs installed after paint. (Though the valve springs have some grunge on them and the umbrella seals are rotten). The valve springs are red/orange which makes me think they're not OEM, am I wrong? I'll definitely CC the heads before any machine work.

It looks like the "seller" took it apart, had the head freshened up and then decided to install a V8. He wasn't real clear on the story and he wasn't very chatty. I'll know better when I dig into it.

 

[drag-200stang]

Just to be clear the pic Powerband put up is the 200/250 62cc chamber, the DODE and some more suffix letters can be the 170 large log small bathtub 52 cc chambers head, I remember that Powerband has put pics of them up before.. I think that is what the OP may have..Won't know till he posts back.

 

[Rev.LowBuck]

Yes that's great that it's a newer 1968 block that opens quite a few more options for you and you certainly got a very good deal for all those parts. I never really though it was that much work to keep the Tri Power Carb's working and in good tune but I used to work on lots of Muti Carb engines at my shop. If you don't mind taking a few pictures of your later 68 block when you get it apart that could be good to get some more info on those newer 170 blocks.

You could open up that carb hole to 2 to maybe 2 1/8 inch dosent have to be round it could be an oval favoring the longest parts of the log just be sure to leave enough for a good gasket seal, then also put a generous radius on the bottom of the hole leading into the log. At that point you could then use one of the better 2V to 1V carb adapter kind of like the V. I. one to get much closer to what a direct mount carb would produce in H. P. X2 yes check with Jerry at Schneider Cam's they are excellent. Well like lots of things the prices on the ReRing Kits have went up considerably, here one company's kit has good quality parts and if you want other parts added they will make you a custom kit, https://www.cleggengine.com/engine-...2-8l-re-ring-kit-main-bearings-1961-1972.html

Best of luck

Bubba, Help me understand your idea of opening the carb bore on the intake because I'm happy to DIY this thing.
Step 1- open the bore with a 2-2 1/8" oval leaving enough flat surface for gasket seal.
Step 2- radius the bottom edge as described.

If I do this and then get V.I.'s adapter, won't the bore at the bottom of the adapter be right at 1.75 where I started? To the point, what is the benefit of grinding a bigger hole if the adapter is just gonna choke it down. Or should I open up the adapter as well?

Weber 1V-2V Adapter - Large Log | Vintage Inlines

This billet adapter is used to install a Weber 2V carb on a stock large log style cylinder head with 1.75" carb bore. The adaptor comes with a custom billet insert, which improves air flow and horse power, and 6 stainless steel Allen head cap screws for mounting (carb studs and spacer are...

www.vintageinlines.com

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Rev.LowBuck, yes for sure the 2V to 1V Carb Adapter Plate base will be a 1 3/4 round hole so you will need to match it up with the larger log head Carb Base Hole, again you also need to keep enough gasket area to get a good seal of about minimum of at least 1/8 inch or better yet at 3/16 of an inch. You would need to have the Carb Adapter along with your head to figure out how far you can open them both up in an oval direction there are several other 2V to 1V Carb adapters made too, yet the V. I. looks to be made with a very nice taper to help its flow. You might also be able to make your own adapter if you wanted depending on how far you want to mod the heads carb opening. As a referance there are some old posts showing how one site member even did his own 2V direct mounting using a just a grinder on a large flat top type log head. The carb mounting base of the log could also be lowered some in case you need some extra to be able to fit the total Carb and Air Cleaner Height to fit with your hood too. So it takes a little studying on what the carb adapter can end up looking like. Some pictures of your head will be helpful too. Good luck Edited

 

[gb500]

www

Optional Side Note: One thing that's not often done is if you can score a from the first year 200 six these were mostly only offered in the 1963 1/2 to 1964 1/2 Fairlanes and some were also offered in the higher trim level 1964 Falcon's Futura's and possibly also in the higher trim S22 1964 Comets). These 200 crankshaft's are probally quite rare now days yet ever so often they come up. Still they were also a 4 main crankshaft that will drop right into the 170 or 144 4 main blocks, and then you would still use the same 170 lenght Contecting Rods, also The 200 Conecting Rods they both are the same lenght. This exact rotating assembly was used and offered in the Argentina Falcons at one time (likely around late 1963 or in the 1964 year models?) to make their 187 cu. in. Engine simply by just boring out the 170 block to .060 over making it a 3.560 bore and used with the 3.126 four main 200 crankshaft. I have not had a chance to research or find out the info yet on what a 170's Piston's compression height (C. H.) is but my best educated guess is that the combo would need to have the 1.511 C. H. just like is used for the Ford 200 six uses or very close to it. In any case you could then end up with a 181 to 187 cu in. short block (and maybe more if there are some oversize Argentina spec Pistons available) depending on the final bore size. This mod though possable probally isn't going to stay within your lower budget rebuild. This Info has now been Up Dated with more info from my current research.

Being a 4 main 170 I am assuming that it's about a 1961 to 1964 170 short block check out your Casting Numbers to verify what your working with. If that turns out to be the case then the DS II and any of those cheap clone type HEI's aren't going to fit into your block without some modding. V. I. Dose have a custom DUI available that fits in these early blocka that used the smaller 1/4 inch drive oil pumps, there was also a Bosh electronic distributor used over in Austrailia that fits these early blocks too. But if you want any of the other 1965 up distributors than you need to machine or ream out the pilot hole in the block or cut down the distritor shaft to be able to fit so then you the newer larger diameter distributor's center shaft along with a 1965 up 5/16 inch drive oil pump. Best of luck

my take on this utilizing a 200 4 main bearing crank in place of a 170 4 mains crank is :
block height same
conrod centre /centre the same .(4.715")
a 170 piston is 3.5" bore and has a comp height of 1.58"
a 200 piston is 3.68" bore and has a comp height of 1.5" ( for the extra stroke)
to fit a 200 crank into a 170 small bore block you need a 3.5" piston of approx. 1.53" (ish) comp height for zero deck

is a thread on here some where but Mazda V6 pistons -Silv-O-Lite Hypereutectic Pistons 1193HC-1-0MM give a 40thou over bore on orig 3.5" bore(ie 3.54" and have a comp height of 1.535 in .

im not aware- that a 170 block can be overbored to 200ci bore - a 180 thou over bore to fit 200 ci piston.

in australia a ford factory 188ci - 7 mains (1967/1968/1969 years only) ) was a 170 crank (7 mains) ( 3.5" stroke) ) with a 200ci bore (3.68")

Edit : a quick google shows (i think- info a bit sparse) that ford Argentina did a 187 four bearing with 200 crank 3.126 / over bored 170 pistons(3.56" pistons) ( which what we talking about above .)
and later ford argintina did a 188 ( 7 mains ?) -i would assume was 200 bore/170 stroke)

170 can be converted to 188?

hi, i have a 170 4 mains block, bore 3.5 and stroke 2.94 the 188 (i know it has 7 mains) has 2.94 of stroke too, but bore 3.68 can i over bore it to 3.68? or the cylinder walls will be very thinner? because i can buy the forged pistons for the 188 and a SP head. i dont speak english very...

fordsix.com

wonder if can find Argentinian 187 pistons sets ?

cheaper/easier to find a 200ci full engine ....and not mess about ...

a

 

[bubba22349]

Thank you gb500, for that 170 C. H. info I have been looking a long time to to try and find that and how far their pistons are down the hole.

As to your first question yes all of US Ford 144, 170, and 200 small Six's are the same exact block deck heights as well as those same engines that were also used in Australia and in Argentina. Both the 144 & 170 also share the same size 3.50 bore size so a complete 170 rotating assembly will also fit into the 144 Block to make it into a 170. The 144 Connecting Rod (C. R.) though is 4.855 and is .140 inch longer than the a 170 C.R. The 170 & 200 use the exact same length C. R. of 4.715. So yes the 170 and 144 both have a bore of 3.50 and the 170 piston has a C. H. of 1.580. Yes the 200 has a much larger bore size of 3.680 however the stock original Pistons have had C. H. of 1.511 the replacement Piston's only have a 1.50 C. H. putting the piston further down in the hole at .030 instead of .019 of a stock 200 Six.

This 200 four main crank swap will work in both a 144 or 170 block. Yes you would also need about a 1.53 C. H. Piston in a diameter of 3.50 to 3.560 or maybe even bigger. You can’t bore out the 3.50 bore blocks to the 200 Six's 3.680 but they are supposed to have very thick cylinder walls at least on the early blocks but I wouldn’t be surprised if they could go .080 or .100 oversize but it would be wise to get it sonic checked to know for sure when trying to go that far. They pulled a lot of metal out of the later 170 and 200 blocks too so don't try going that big on them with out sonic checking them.

Those 188 cu. in. engines are a taller deck height and wider block like the 221 Argentina SP Six, and their longer stoke 221 crankshaft drops right into their 188 block's to build a 221. Australia also made the tall deck 188 & 221 sixes too, I believe that they are both .660 of an inch taller than a 200 Six and that's about 1/2 of the height between a 200 and our 250 Six they are the same width as our US 250 block. I would think you could find the 187 pistons in std. and over size I know that some piston companies here in the states have listings for the Australian spec pistons and you could also get a custom set of pistons made fairly reasonable, but who knows if you searched through the piston catalogs if you wouldn’t find a piston that can work. I think it would be a very good combo with the 200 stroke crank it would have a good increase in torque that's closer to what the 200 Sixes have yet it could also have a little better MPG economy like the smaller Sixes did. Good luck.

 

[pmuller9]

Autotec/Racetec will make the piston.

 

[78_200_C4]

A 2 flute router bit will open up the aluminum adapter hole to match the enlarged intake bore. Use a small trim router with the base removed. A 2 flute router bit will not clog up when cutting aluminum and cuts it easily. I enlarged a large log intake bore with the head on by stuffing rags and grease in the log then vacuuming it out . The small log head can be opened up to about the size of a large log bore but may be a slightly egg shaped. A lot of material can be removed from the bottom of the small log bore.

 

[78_200_C4]

I've read that the 170 can be bored .125. The newer C8 170 block castings could be thinner than the earlier blocks though.

 

[powerband]

... pics of DODE - @ 52 cc chamber head from C8DE Maverick 170:

.


;
. .

D7DE (?) @ 62 CC Chamber head- (Maverick 250)