Gene Fiore
Famous Member
Time for that next dyno session!!! 
MORE POWER
- Thread starter MPGmustang
- Start date
Good news, but mostly bad news...
good news, did a dyno run today, did see some improvement, but not nearly enough to to call it done...
HP=136
tq=166
I think air temp was around 90-95, I'll look later @ the dyno run...
this is with the cam degree'd properly, and the 2bbl directly mounted, A/F was rich, 11.5-12.8 ish, give or take ... but not enough to hurt the hp... the A/F was great throughout the entire range, so I do think I'm pumping enough gas...
I have developed another tick, or it's the same tick I heard last time just louder,
Fixing this while keeping it on the road everyday, this car/engine/hobby is getting to me guys, I love it don't get me wrong, it's just that this is by no means a daily driver anymore it's a daily fixer and this mechanic is getting over worked and extremely underpaid. my faith in the whole of the project is like $100 bills in a fire...
by the time I'm done with this car I could have had a 67 Convertible mustang for the 19k I have sunk into this one... mostly learning but gosh I wish I just bought one finished. hind-sight is always 20/20 vision...
I'm by no means done, I plan on getting this back up and reliable and tick-less...
I think my gas pump is ticking, so I'll replace that with a free electric pump I have access too. I don't think this is the main tick I'm hearing though.
the ticking is deff louder than last time, it wasn't ticking until after the dyno run, which I ran up to 5500rpm (1st time on dyno) it reved very smoothly even seamed to want to keep going
I plan on installing an oil gage, to tell me the exact oil pressure. it's possible that it's just inadequate oil pump.
I think I'm going to look for adjustible rockers and new push rods (getting the correct size push rod will be very important), I'm also going to drop the oil pan as it's leaking alittle, and while I'm there look at the oil pump, probably even replace it, while the oil pan is off I'll look at the camshaft while I rotate it, take pictures of anything that might look wrong.
Keep suggestions coming at things to look at, I don't mind being through, I'm even thinking of getting a 2nd block, pulling this one and putting eveything from 1st to the 2nd one part at a time, but I'll have to get a 2nd car before that happens.
Thanks guys.
good news, did a dyno run today, did see some improvement, but not nearly enough to to call it done...
HP=136
tq=166
I think air temp was around 90-95, I'll look later @ the dyno run...
this is with the cam degree'd properly, and the 2bbl directly mounted, A/F was rich, 11.5-12.8 ish, give or take ... but not enough to hurt the hp... the A/F was great throughout the entire range, so I do think I'm pumping enough gas...
I have developed another tick, or it's the same tick I heard last time just louder,
Fixing this while keeping it on the road everyday, this car/engine/hobby is getting to me guys, I love it don't get me wrong, it's just that this is by no means a daily driver anymore it's a daily fixer and this mechanic is getting over worked and extremely underpaid. my faith in the whole of the project is like $100 bills in a fire...
by the time I'm done with this car I could have had a 67 Convertible mustang for the 19k I have sunk into this one... mostly learning but gosh I wish I just bought one finished. hind-sight is always 20/20 vision...
I'm by no means done, I plan on getting this back up and reliable and tick-less...
I think my gas pump is ticking, so I'll replace that with a free electric pump I have access too. I don't think this is the main tick I'm hearing though.
the ticking is deff louder than last time, it wasn't ticking until after the dyno run, which I ran up to 5500rpm (1st time on dyno) it reved very smoothly even seamed to want to keep going
I plan on installing an oil gage, to tell me the exact oil pressure. it's possible that it's just inadequate oil pump.
I think I'm going to look for adjustible rockers and new push rods (getting the correct size push rod will be very important), I'm also going to drop the oil pan as it's leaking alittle, and while I'm there look at the oil pump, probably even replace it, while the oil pan is off I'll look at the camshaft while I rotate it, take pictures of anything that might look wrong.
Keep suggestions coming at things to look at, I don't mind being through, I'm even thinking of getting a 2nd block, pulling this one and putting eveything from 1st to the 2nd one part at a time, but I'll have to get a 2nd car before that happens.
Thanks guys.
still at this, thought i'd share a few things I've found...
my 7inch rear is not leaking, just over filled, so I doubt there is power loss due to that..
I have installed an oil presure gauge, 45 psi cold idle, 50 cold cruise, 38 temp idle, 45 temp cruise.. looks good to me.
1 exhaust nut was loose, was the bottom nut to 3-4, where the tick is, sadly this wasn't the tick. it's still there and if anything little louder
trans fluid is great
oil level was 1 qrt low, leaking out the distributor, I'll find a new o-ring and try some non-dry'n silicon
rockers 'look' good, can't tell any dmg or anything... running non-adjustibles 1.5
still need to pull the gas pump. I know it's kinda ticking but it's not in sync with my tick... still I'll replace it soon.
the only next cheap/free thing to do is to pull the oil pan and look at the camshaft, is it possible that I have only select few lobes that would wear unevenly? I've alway's thought that if one lobe was bad then they all would be bad, my camshaft looked good when I had the head off and they all looked the same. I don't know what else to look at... maybe the oil pump is coming loose?
my 7inch rear is not leaking, just over filled, so I doubt there is power loss due to that..
I have installed an oil presure gauge, 45 psi cold idle, 50 cold cruise, 38 temp idle, 45 temp cruise.. looks good to me.
1 exhaust nut was loose, was the bottom nut to 3-4, where the tick is, sadly this wasn't the tick. it's still there and if anything little louder
trans fluid is great
oil level was 1 qrt low, leaking out the distributor, I'll find a new o-ring and try some non-dry'n silicon
rockers 'look' good, can't tell any dmg or anything... running non-adjustibles 1.5
still need to pull the gas pump. I know it's kinda ticking but it's not in sync with my tick... still I'll replace it soon.
the only next cheap/free thing to do is to pull the oil pan and look at the camshaft, is it possible that I have only select few lobes that would wear unevenly? I've alway's thought that if one lobe was bad then they all would be bad, my camshaft looked good when I had the head off and they all looked the same. I don't know what else to look at... maybe the oil pump is coming loose?
what do u guy's think of carb spacer's, I've seen 'tv' place a 1inch spacer and gain a couple ponies at the same time getting rid of vacuum if any at WOT... just thought I'd ask...
Can’t hurt at a minimum I always use the thick carb gaskets “3/8 to ½ inch” on everything insolates carb from engine heat. Many tests show improvement with a 1 to 2 inch spacer so think you have a very good idea.
Richard, i would be interested what your cranking compression is on a hot engine.
Make sure you disconnect the ignition, have the throttle wide open & use a quality compression guage like a snap on.
I would hope you get close to 175#. Bill
Make sure you disconnect the ignition, have the throttle wide open & use a quality compression guage like a snap on.
I would hope you get close to 175#. Bill
okay, I have been reading and re-reading everything in this post,
MORE POWER is what I'm after...
As mentioned, it's all in the head...
I hate to admit it but I have 1 inch of vacuum at WOT in 2nd gear all the way from 40mph to 60mph (roughly 3500~5500rpm) I don't think this cam is correct for my application, I'm positive the cam can go higher but the head won't let it. this tells me, too much cam.
the head is heavily ported in the bowls, I have the largest 1.75 intake valves and 1.5 exhaust valves the head can take. and I have the magnesium (or what ever Elmo used) valve guides installed. luckily I have the later head so it came with hardened valve seats, other wise you can bet-ur-boot I would have added those too. I don't have an exhaust divider for 3-4 no need and didn't want it rattling around. it's the largest log availible for a 250, the 1400+cc hex log from 78. I could extruda hone the head but think that would just be a waste, would be more wise to spend elsewhere
I want MORE POWER...
I have a 2bbl direct mount, I'll be adding a 1inch spacer (hopefully a 1inch will fit!)
(question1) How high of CR can I safely go and still use pump 91 octaine? I am thinking of milling the head to increase HP. extra work but IMO worth it. starting out with 50.5-51 chambers.
and then at the same time I'll be installing a different custom grind camshaft. but I need to know (question 2) what duration/grind I need? how do I fiugure out the best camshaft for this head?
depending on CR and CAM, I'll get my DUI recurved to suit best performance. also be replacing the live wires with custom length wires and keeping these for spares. I don't care if it's 'live wires' or not but will be good quality.
if I time this right I can get this done in 3 weeks downtime. but I need information and need to figure out how to optimize what I can work with. I'm okay with changing the camshaft, increasing the CR and recurving the DUI. but don't know what to look for in the cam, I have read the 'choosing the right camshaft' so many times that I understand it but can't figure out how to relate it to the head flow.
WSA111,
I will get you those hot numbers on monday, the 26th, I'm finally curious myself.
I plan on picking up a new ford fairmount gas pump also and installing that (to see if it still ticks), keeping my old pump to modify a carter for a CSB to bump up the fuel pressure. this I will do on new years day as I'm off on holiday, unless I cure my tick...
If all works out I hope to do the head/cam/DUI mod no later than march, but will have to wait and see. maybe sooner if I can find the right info.
MORE POWER is what I'm after...
As mentioned, it's all in the head...
I hate to admit it but I have 1 inch of vacuum at WOT in 2nd gear all the way from 40mph to 60mph (roughly 3500~5500rpm) I don't think this cam is correct for my application, I'm positive the cam can go higher but the head won't let it. this tells me, too much cam.
the head is heavily ported in the bowls, I have the largest 1.75 intake valves and 1.5 exhaust valves the head can take. and I have the magnesium (or what ever Elmo used) valve guides installed. luckily I have the later head so it came with hardened valve seats, other wise you can bet-ur-boot I would have added those too. I don't have an exhaust divider for 3-4 no need and didn't want it rattling around. it's the largest log availible for a 250, the 1400+cc hex log from 78. I could extruda hone the head but think that would just be a waste, would be more wise to spend elsewhere
I want MORE POWER...
I have a 2bbl direct mount, I'll be adding a 1inch spacer (hopefully a 1inch will fit!)
(question1) How high of CR can I safely go and still use pump 91 octaine? I am thinking of milling the head to increase HP. extra work but IMO worth it. starting out with 50.5-51 chambers.
and then at the same time I'll be installing a different custom grind camshaft. but I need to know (question 2) what duration/grind I need? how do I fiugure out the best camshaft for this head?
depending on CR and CAM, I'll get my DUI recurved to suit best performance. also be replacing the live wires with custom length wires and keeping these for spares. I don't care if it's 'live wires' or not but will be good quality.
if I time this right I can get this done in 3 weeks downtime. but I need information and need to figure out how to optimize what I can work with. I'm okay with changing the camshaft, increasing the CR and recurving the DUI. but don't know what to look for in the cam, I have read the 'choosing the right camshaft' so many times that I understand it but can't figure out how to relate it to the head flow.
WSA111,
I will get you those hot numbers on monday, the 26th, I'm finally curious myself.
I plan on picking up a new ford fairmount gas pump also and installing that (to see if it still ticks), keeping my old pump to modify a carter for a CSB to bump up the fuel pressure. this I will do on new years day as I'm off on holiday, unless I cure my tick...
If all works out I hope to do the head/cam/DUI mod no later than march, but will have to wait and see. maybe sooner if I can find the right info.
my compression test with warm engine..
1-6
165,172,170,165,158,167
they are all less than 8.1% of each other, which IIRC is good.
today I went for a spin and tried the higher rpm range again, I got 2 inches of vacuum from 3k to 5800 rpm in 2nd and in 3rd gear, I have repeated the process and have confirmed my findings. what do you guy's think? too much cam, or not enough, I know my head is restricting and making vacuum, unless it's the carburetor is still too small, then I'll be going to the 500cfm Holley.
1-6
165,172,170,165,158,167
they are all less than 8.1% of each other, which IIRC is good.
today I went for a spin and tried the higher rpm range again, I got 2 inches of vacuum from 3k to 5800 rpm in 2nd and in 3rd gear, I have repeated the process and have confirmed my findings. what do you guy's think? too much cam, or not enough, I know my head is restricting and making vacuum, unless it's the carburetor is still too small, then I'll be going to the 500cfm Holley.
What is a Higher RPM , 5000 higher , that cam is NOT too Big , and neither is the Carb , more compression , more cam , more carb , = more power and of course it will be at MORE rpm say 6000 , but as Ive stated before 200 is a small motor , the only way to ( normally aspirated ) get more IS RPM'S and the related parts needed to get there , I believe my 250 is making a tick over 200 ( at the Flywheel ) , there is more there , BUT I need more cam ,as its done at 5000-5200, I also believe a triple carb setup is way better in ultimate power than any direct mount 2 brl , but since you already have it done , Id try a 500 , also the vacuum reading , that's a manifold source right ? a spacer may help , BUT not more than a hp or 2 , not the same effect on a log engine as a v-6/V-8 setup or removable intake , where it will help straighten out the flow and add effective plenum volume
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac17 ... bblrun.jpg
here you can see the power curve, torque curve and the AF ratio of what the current engine does. I can't believe I haven't posted it yet on this thread.
I agree the 3x1bbl is SO much better than the single 2bbl, I've been playing with the idea of adding 2 single barrels on the ends, I've seen it before on this forum...
I'm very confident on higher CR, possible more cam, or the same cam and only higher CR... but I much keep it within the 91 octane pump gas, it's the only limit I must put on the engine as it's a daily driver and don't want to have to get race gas just to go to work... lol
I've called up Elmo my head builder and he'll get back to me on the best camshaft for my engine. I'm wondering where to get the custom grind from, IIRC CI can special order from CSC any grind. either way, I want it straight up so I can advance it as needed.
maybe I have too much advance in my current cam, 4* is where it's set at, so maybe If I change that to say 2* or even 0* straight up, but either way when revving higher, I have chain stretch
I like to wind the engine out to 5800 rpm my foot is always buried in that petal, I would like to rev higher, but don't think the bottom is up to it. maybe it is... IDK as my gauge goes to 6k
here you can see the power curve, torque curve and the AF ratio of what the current engine does. I can't believe I haven't posted it yet on this thread.
I agree the 3x1bbl is SO much better than the single 2bbl, I've been playing with the idea of adding 2 single barrels on the ends, I've seen it before on this forum...
I'm very confident on higher CR, possible more cam, or the same cam and only higher CR... but I much keep it within the 91 octane pump gas, it's the only limit I must put on the engine as it's a daily driver and don't want to have to get race gas just to go to work... lol
I've called up Elmo my head builder and he'll get back to me on the best camshaft for my engine. I'm wondering where to get the custom grind from, IIRC CI can special order from CSC any grind. either way, I want it straight up so I can advance it as needed.
maybe I have too much advance in my current cam, 4* is where it's set at, so maybe If I change that to say 2* or even 0* straight up, but either way when revving higher, I have chain stretch
I like to wind the engine out to 5800 rpm my foot is always buried in that petal, I would like to rev higher, but don't think the bottom is up to it. maybe it is... IDK as my gauge goes to 6k
91 Octane is Definitely a limiter , 93 is easy in Pa , but I know that's NOT the case everywhere as I found when I rode to Sturgis in 02 , My cam would be one Id recommend in your combo , having a mild cam as yours and then having it advanced 4 degrees is limiting the top hp ( IMO ) if changing cam is not a tomorrow project , I will have it for sale as I too need bigger , Its a Sold Crane unit Grind F-228/3067-2-12 , part number 510801 its a .460 / .480 lift on 112
Elmo Emailed me some specs...
I gave him my specs and what I would like to do along with the limiting 91oct factor.
I bet CSC can grind this with .480 lift into the cam. and he mentioned that I should aim for 9.8 CR
This sounds like a plan, people might think of this as aggressive but I don't think this is... sounds right up my alley. learning...
Elmo my (and ClassicInlines) head builder/porter emailed me some interesting info...
I gave him my specs and what I would like to do along with the limiting 91oct factor.
I bet CSC can grind this with .480 lift into the cam. and he mentioned that I should aim for 9.8 CR
This sounds like a plan, people might think of this as aggressive but I don't think this is... sounds right up my alley. learning...
You need flat top pistons to get your static compression up to a respectiful level close to over 10-1.
This will be necessary to get your cranking compression at least to 190#.
The camshaft you choose will need to be aggressive, needing at least 130# valve spring pressure on the seat & possibly over 300# open.
The average street cams will not do the job.
You want to play with the big boys you better learn to adjust valves cause you will need a solid lifter camshaft to get the job done.
Your distributor will need to be fine tuned for your new combination. Bill
This will be necessary to get your cranking compression at least to 190#.
The camshaft you choose will need to be aggressive, needing at least 130# valve spring pressure on the seat & possibly over 300# open.
The average street cams will not do the job.
You want to play with the big boys you better learn to adjust valves cause you will need a solid lifter camshaft to get the job done.
Your distributor will need to be fine tuned for your new combination. Bill
Your Engine Guy is being a bit conservative (IMO) WSA is right you need more and believe me its a snowball effect , I think he is a bit high on the needed seat pressure , but probably dead on , on the over the nose ( open pressure) , our sixes have small valves which give a lighter inertial effect so spring pressures can be a bit lower , especially if you invest in Light ( titanium ) retainers , and Yes a SOLID lifter cam is going to be needed , also you posted your oil pressure) and it should be a bit higher than you have if your going to spin 6000 ( just shim the oil pump spring 1/4 inch it will do it ) I have 75 lbs on start up and 45 when good and hot with 10w30 racing oil ( will switch to Synthetic on next change) as it IS worth it
Well, I've had a really good converstaion with my head builder, very insightfull that guy is...
better plan!!
I'm mainly aiming for more power, and I think IMO 150RWHP with this 200ci with the log head would be ideal... I just have this number stuck in my head... it's 200 if I had the alum head... but I don't... so it's 150rwhp...
Plan,
Step1) take head off and have milled for 9.8 CR
Step2) degree cam to 1* advaced (109* lobe center) for timing chain stretch... effectivelly will be 0* to account for chain stretch...
Step3) recurve DUI
Step4) test higher ratio rocker combo's on Dyno
1.6-1.65 rocker ratio rockers... try only on intake side first, then try again with exhaust side and compare, he thinks I'll see most gain on intake only.
this is a cheaper solution than a new cam, lifters, on top of the rockers and everything else...
this solution he thinks will make that 150HP mark @ 4500-5500 range... it's only 15hp more than what I have...
this is really better for the log cast iron intake.
The reason he thinks this is because the rockers will give better usable airflow (optimal air flow when the piston is traveling the fastest) at a higher lift, then the fact that the duration will increase slightly will help top end
Then as I'm retarding the cam the DCR will decrease but because the SCR is going up it will help increase the DCR and I won't be much different that what I have, BUT this will help top end and still keep the car drivable and reliable with it's current configuration.
This gives alot to think about, but I really like the idea, granted it won't be no 230/232 cam, but with the higher ratio rockers with my 214/224 will be 'effectively' closer to ~220/230 (if higher rato on both exhaust and intake) but if only HRR's are on intake side it will be more effectively 220/224 110 .480/.450 type of cam... unless I can get my hands on some 1.65 rockers... but only tests will show.
now I'm sure I buffled something, but I hope I got the idea across clearly.
this is much cheaper than replacing what I thought was necessary before... glad I'm taking the time to ask questions and be open minded... I didn't the first time.
better plan!!
I'm mainly aiming for more power, and I think IMO 150RWHP with this 200ci with the log head would be ideal... I just have this number stuck in my head... it's 200 if I had the alum head... but I don't... so it's 150rwhp...
Plan,
Step1) take head off and have milled for 9.8 CR
Step2) degree cam to 1* advaced (109* lobe center) for timing chain stretch... effectivelly will be 0* to account for chain stretch...
Step3) recurve DUI
Step4) test higher ratio rocker combo's on Dyno
1.6-1.65 rocker ratio rockers... try only on intake side first, then try again with exhaust side and compare, he thinks I'll see most gain on intake only.
this is a cheaper solution than a new cam, lifters, on top of the rockers and everything else...
this solution he thinks will make that 150HP mark @ 4500-5500 range... it's only 15hp more than what I have...
this is really better for the log cast iron intake.
The reason he thinks this is because the rockers will give better usable airflow (optimal air flow when the piston is traveling the fastest) at a higher lift, then the fact that the duration will increase slightly will help top end
Then as I'm retarding the cam the DCR will decrease but because the SCR is going up it will help increase the DCR and I won't be much different that what I have, BUT this will help top end and still keep the car drivable and reliable with it's current configuration.
This gives alot to think about, but I really like the idea, granted it won't be no 230/232 cam, but with the higher ratio rockers with my 214/224 will be 'effectively' closer to ~220/230 (if higher rato on both exhaust and intake) but if only HRR's are on intake side it will be more effectively 220/224 110 .480/.450 type of cam... unless I can get my hands on some 1.65 rockers... but only tests will show.
now I'm sure I buffled something, but I hope I got the idea across clearly.
this is much cheaper than replacing what I thought was necessary before... glad I'm taking the time to ask questions and be open minded... I didn't the first time.
I like all of it , and Add Please try a 500 if you have one , choosing a smaller carb is Never a bad Ideal , BUT try a larger one cant Hurt , example= My brothers 66 Mustang with a Mild 306 inch Small Block , its an ONLY race car setup , and we had a 600 on it , tried a 650 picked up 3 tents and 2 mph ( and that was Vac Secondary to Double Pumper as well ) I then picked up a 750 Double pumper , all the math says TOO big , BUT it picked up another tenth and a MPH ( it now has run a best of 12.07 @111 ) I now try as Big a carb as I have ( within reason ) if I can , Never close your mind to a possibility .
