223 low idle and choke problems; What does your 223 idle at?

[Renegade]

I've been swapping out my main jets and so forth and have come to some conclusions, but haven't solved my problem.

Conclusion(so far): Something is wrong with my two Holley 1960's, it is NOT the motor.


I found out that the third of my carbs is actually a Holley 1904 that was OEM on '60>'61 Comet/Falcon's.....so it's the wrong carb...........HOWEVER! It has a tiny-wincy #53 jet and makes BOTH engines purr like a kitten even with the choke fully open!

On my Holley 1960 I just threw a #64 jet replacing the #70 I had on it before and it did nothing.


....... :arg:

 

[bubba22349]

On my Holley 1960 I just threw a #64 jet replacing the #70 I had on it before and it did nothing.

It's not likely it’s going to be a main jet problem, you can't really even begin to tune that until you can get it to run without the choke on. With the choke on it completely bypasses the carb’s idle circuit. You would not change the jet size until you can get a plug reading (right color or test with exhaust analyzer) fine tuning at study cruise speeds. If the float itself is good and the float level is right than you need to check to see if you have excessive throttle shaft ware this is common problem with an old carb. At least you could probably drive it with that Falcon 1904 on it.

 

[Renegade]

^^^Just as you suspected the #60 jet didn't change anything at all.

Throttle linkages are some of the tightest/best I've seen on a truck this old.


I think you're right about the 1904 idea. But.................I'm so frustrated.


BOTH of these carbs RAN on two trucks that my dad drove himself!!! It may have been long ago.....but it happened. They had the same main jets that I had at first. Nothing was different.

And they ran those trucks just fine!


:thumbdown:

 

[bubba22349]

I think you're right about the 1904 idea. But.................I'm so frustrated.

Yeah they can make you that way when you’re chasing down the cause of the problem. I would say though that you have made lots of progress, as you now know it's the carb and at least these Holley’s are relatively easy compared to some carb's. Have you checked that all the passages are clean when you had it all apart? I would spray some carb cleaner though them sometimes varnish and crude will be in them from sitting unused for years. I like the Barrymen's brand is about the best in a spary can. Also check to see if the power valve and economizer diaphragm are working right. I have attached some pictures so you can see all the passages and parts work together click on them to enlarge the detail.

BOTH of these carbs RAN on two trucks that my dad drove himself!!! It may have been long ago.....but it happened. They had the same main jets that I had at first. Nothing was different.

And they ran those trucks just fine!

Yeah they should be fine my 54 Customline still has it's org. carb on it. Good luck

http://img375.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=v ... 960002.jpg

 

[Lazy JW]

......


BOTH of these carbs RAN on two trucks that my dad drove himself!!! It may have been long ago.....but it happened. They had the same main jets that I had at first. Nothing was different....

Oh, but something IS different, and it isn't in the main jets. Pay very close attention to what flatford6 said above.
Joe

 

[Renegade]

Thank you VERY VERY much for those pictures, really puts things into perspective and now I know what and where to start cleaning, blowing things out, etc. (Even though this carb has already been cleaned more than humanly possible....I just don't know how Mayben could have left anything behind, he has the most complicated and amazing rebuild ability I've ever heard of....he cleans parts I didn't even know existed, "how do I outdo that?" is my general feeling...)

Yes, something must be different. I'll be chasing some things down tomorrow to see if that can help, but I really don't know what else it could be.

Ignition is stuff I don't know very well so checking the spark........3/8's inch? That doesn't make sense to me, I'm an electrical fool.


If I thought I was loosing faith a month ago......I don't even know where I'm at today.

 

[bubba22349]

Glad to be of help

Ignition is stuff I don't know very well so checking the spark........3/8's inch? That doesn't make sense to me, I'm an electrical fool.

The 3/8 inch flatford6 referred to is the distance you hold spark plug wire from the plug if it jumps that gap or more it's sign that coil and other parts are in good shape also look at the color of that spark your looking for a nice blue zap. If it's a yellow color this is a sign of a weak coil.

 

[Renegade]

^Oh ok, that sounds easy enough. I'll try that next time I run it.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

 

[Renegade]

So on the other motor I have, I decided to run my other 1960 that I haven't run in a while. Took it apart and cleaned it to make sure all of the parts were ok.

I got 2 cans of carb cleaner and 120psi of air pressure and blew every nook and cranny to kingdom come......twice.

Threw it on the truck and the same issue.


I wonder if there is anybody here in Bakersfield that runs a 223 that I could ask to "use" their carb or something. Or maybe I could send mine to another person by mail and ask them to simply run it on their motor for a few minutes.

 

[bubba22349]

I am sure there must be a few still around there, lived 10 years in Visalia Ca. If you can't find anybody in your area you maybe could send it down to me in SoCal 91780. I don't have any extra core's at this time though and have been looking for a pair of 1904's with glass bowls have Offy 2X1 intake would like to install on my 54 Customline.

 

[Drumhead_Dan]

A couple of things to look at:

Make sure your rocker arms are being adequately oiled. If I look inside my oil fill I can just see the first couple of rockers. If you see oil coming over the front rocker you should be getting adequate oil pressure. If you don't see oil coming over the front rocker arm(inside the valve cover) your valve lash won't and can't be right. These had an upper oiling problem with a low pressure topside, it seems quite common for people to overlook the O-ring in the lift tube when the engine goes back together. Because its a low pressure system once your idle goes back down you shouldn't get much splatter hot adjusting the valves. I put a brand new NAPA fuel filter in my mustang last year and some fuzz got caught in the needle valve... twice. Drove me crazy for something so basic; hang in there.

If I remember correctly there were four sized of jets listed over the years for the 223. All of them were really close in size, but I don't have my reference books here to look them up.

 

[Renegade]

Just ran into a guy with a '56 that came originally with a 223, but he swapped to a sbc 350 and TH350 in '76.

Point is: I am currently rebuilding just that. If this truck isn't running by next spring(which I doubt it will), I'm getting rid of this trash that is Ford and getting something that won't raise my blood pressure anymore.

I'm sorry for all of you hardcore Ford guys, but I have no "brand-bias". If it get's this truck on the road, that's what's going in. Not to mention I doubt a stock 350 will get worse mileage than this 223.

 

[bubba22349]

If this truck isn't running by next spring(which I doubt it will), I'm getting rid of this trash that is Ford and getting something that won't raise my blood pressure anymore.

Let me know if you do I might be interested been looking for a 223 or 262 for my 58

 

[Renegade]

Well the problem is basically fixed.

The problem? I don't know how to turn screws.

The idle speed screw wasn't turned anywhere NEAR as far as it should. that was it. No mechanical problem. No vac leak. I simply didn't know to turn in the idle speed screw far enough.
----------------------------------------

But here is another issue. The carb hasn't been fully tuned. The timing/idle speed/mixture have not been tuned to eachother with a vac gauge yet.

But at a stand still(it has not been driven yet), when I giv it a lot of gas at one time, or keep doing it at higher rpm, the tail pipe puffs out a little black smoke. It is not bad, but noticeable.

Is that normal for these trucks/carbs? My other carbed car(70's Pontiac) NEVER smokes, no matter what......so I think this black(rich) smoke is bad.


But then again, I haven't tuned the carb/timing yet.


Does your 223 smoke a little when given a heavy foot?

 

[bubba22349]

But here is another issue. The carb hasn't been fully tuned. The timing/idle speed/mixture have not been tuned to eachother with a vac gauge yet.

You can also tune the carb to best idle using a tach if you have or if you have a good ear listen for the higest RPM. The best way to tune it is to get as many of the setting right as you can. If I remember right you have reset all the valves (at operateing temp) though this would also be a part of a full tune up. Next set all the the plugs to .035. Than the points to spec by dwel (this is best way) if you don't have a tach/dewl meter than set points to .024 to .026. Now set timing with a timing light to 3 BTDC (later after your engine get's some use you could add a little more. With all these setting (they won't need to be changed till next tune up) now you only need to do the carb

For a stock engine start with these settings
Spark Plug Gap, Inch: .035
Breaker Gap, Inch: .024-.026
Cam Dwel Angle: 36 degrees
Ignition Timing: Timing should be set to 3 degrees BTDC.
On Damp.; Long line is TDC and short marks are 3,5,7,9 degrees.
Idle Speed, RPM: Manual shift trans. 475 for an Auto is 450 in drive with the park brake set

But at a stand still(it has not been driven yet), when I giv it a lot of gas at one time, or keep doing it at higher rpm, the tail pipe puffs out a little black smoke. It is not bad, but noticeable

Black smoke is a sign of being too rich

Does your 223 smoke a little when given a heavy foot?

No

This may take a few trys to get it right turn the idel screw in until you get the highest RPM. Thenset the Idel speed at carb linkage to the factory setting see above. then re turn the idel screw again to highest RPM and reset linkage etc. repeate until you have no big changes. Roughly its about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 turns out from seated (lightly). Now take it out and test it and have some fun

 

[Renegade]

^^See, that's not my experience with the idle-mixture screw. I have it out 2-2½ turns and if I go in AT ALL it just slows down and even bogs......there is no increasing of rpm when turning in the mixture screw..... :| Does that mean I need to turn it in to lean it out anyways(to take care of the black smoke)?


Another thing is that the timing is set to 4ºBTDC, that's what my '56 Ford manual says anyways.

All of those other specs are right on. Have checked them multiple times.


HOWEVER! Part of the "Tuning" process I was told to do is advancing the timing. This is an exact quote from the person who told me how to tune this carb/motor:

Then you warm up your engine and set it to the correct idle rpm and open the mixture screws 2 full turns. Once that is done you start to advance your timing and watch for the engine vacuum to increase - that means th eengin eis running more efficiently. But, as you move the distributor and RPM increases, you adjust the idle rpm to stay at the right rpm. You do this back and forth until the vacuum reaches it's highest amount and then willnot go any higher. Adjust the idle rpm to the correct setting and BACK OFF the distributor so the vacuum reading drops about 1 inch of pressure.

With that set, you then turn in the mixture screw in increments of 1/4 turn. The vacuum should increase and th eidle rpm should increase. At each step return that idle rpm to the right rpm. Go in another 1/4 turn and so forth until the vacuum no longer goes up. Be sure and set the idle rpm again to the right rpm.

Again loosen the distributor and gently advance the timing to see if the vacuum goes up if it does continue to advance it while adjusting the idle rpm tothe correct rpm. When the vacuum will no longer increase by moving the distributor, retard the timing juet enough to drop th evacuum by one inch tighten the distributor down and check that the idle rpm is correct.

The idle mixture, timing and idle rpm are now correctly set. Disconnect the vacuum gauge, reconnect the vacuum advance and go for a drive. If th eenginepings at all,come back and retard the timing by 1 degree. Test drive again. All tune up aspects of the engine are now fine tuned and correctly set.

Does that sound right?

Why leave the timing alone until later?

 

[Lazy JW]

That sounds about right to me.

Frankly, I have always considered stock specs to be a pretty good starting point, but rarely do I leave them at those precise settings; local conditions vary significantly from those at Detroit (wherever) and I find it best to tune for the local elevations, barometric pressure, humidity, temperature, fuel quality, loading, and driving habits.

I do tend to like my idle speeds to be faster than stock.
Joe

 

[bubba22349]

See, that's not my experience with the idle-mixture screw. I have it out 2-2½ turns and if I go in AT ALL it just slows down and even bogs......there is no increasing of rpm when turning in the mixture screw..... Does that mean I need to turn it in to lean it out anyways(to take care of the black smoke)?

Yes is out too far turn it back in to 1 1/2 and start again every engine is a bit different but generally they will be between ¾ to 1 ½ out. A loose engine can be idled way down a 100 or more RPM from stock a new tight engine may need to be a bit higher and richer than stock. With the engine warmed up good adjust the throttle linkage to raise the idle just enough so it won't stall If you get it too high of RPM you are bypassing the idle circuit of the carb. Than start tuning the carb idle screw you will know when you get close to the sweat spot the idle will be highest (lean best idle) then if you turn it in a little more and it will start to drop RPM. RPM also subtly changes when out too much though it is much harder to notice with out a good ear or the best way a tach. Then set linkage to you desired RPM. You may have to repeat these two settings two or three times to get the RPM down to right on. On timing 4 degrees is fine to start with as Lazy JW said I also advance them more than stock (to tune for this area) to 8 or 10 degrees these could be good were you are too. I just suggested using the stock settings because you said the engine was new and assumed that it might be a bit on the tight side.

 

[Renegade]

Is advanced timing bad for a new motor?

 

[Lazy JW]

Is advanced timing bad for a new motor?

Not if that's what the engine wants; advancing too much will cause pinging which is bad for any engine but all you need to do then is retard it a bit.

In VERY general terms, give it as much advance as you can until it's too much, then back it off a bit.
Joe