Another Distributor Gear & Camshaft Drive Gear Scored

[wsa111]

Have 1100 miles on engine, had new clay smith 274 camshaft & new gear on the distributor.
Lubricated both with moly lube & have run shell rotella with GM EOS since breaking in engine, yes the oil has been changed & the same oil as breakin are now in the engine.
How i noticed the problem, was i checked the timing with a timing light & found i had 34 degrees total & my initial advance had dropped to 14 degrees.
I pulled the cap & sure enough turning the rotor it had excessive play.
Proceeded to remove distributor & here is the gear & there is also some wear on the drive gear on the camshaft.
For the time being i just installed a new NAPA gear on the distributor & when i install the new head i will pull the engine & install another camshaft & this time i will use a crow cam's hardened distributor gear.
The gear that failed was a GP-Sorenson brand.
Where is the problem??? The cams or the distributor gears or both. Bill

There are some junk products out there but which one is the culprit??

 

[addo]

William, without seeing it I am going to guess the cam's helix has a nitrided finish that's abrading the standard-issue gears. I read of some guys in Australia re-nitriding cams after grinding (a few years back; the soft factory cams were all they could get for grinding), and their newly hardened drive helix chewed out distributor gears.

It's quite an even wear pattern so I don't think mismatch of pitch is the problem.

[Edit] Also, I suspect the dizzy gear has been "sacrificed" and your cam is still fine. Got to wonder if an UHMW polymer gear is feasible... Taking the other option - slippery, rather than hard.

 

[rbohm]

8) i wonder is the clay smith cams are being ground from steel billit rather than cast iron. another thing i wonder is if there is enough clearance between the gears. if the problem is the material of the cam, then swapping to a steel gear should solve the problem.

 

[wallaka]

There are a bunch of comments about the problem here:
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46321

 

[wsa111]

Adam, the scoring on the camshaft is about 65% compared to the distributor gear. But the camshaft definately shows wear, just like the last 264 camshaft.
When i pull the engine i will make some drastic changes, cause i will not tolerate this continued wear on these parts, 1100 miles, wear like this is total BS. Bill

 

[Anonymous]

Bill,

Could it be to much oil restricted from the top end? I know you were having overoiling issues before with the yella terra rocker arms and I believe you restricted the oil flow IIRC.

Since mine is tore apart, I'll have to take a look also at my cam gear & distro gear although since mine is a DUI distro I would assume it would allready have a hardened gear.

Good Luck!

Doug

 

[66 E100 Pickup]

no one has asked about the oil pump.

My understanding is that a "high volume" performance oil pump will toast the dizzy/cam gears in short order. However that statement came from Clifford Performance, so take a grain of salt or not according to your view.

What are you running?

John

 

[wsa111]

Since mine is tore apart, I'll have to take a look also at my cam gear & distro gear although since mine is a DUI distro I would assume it would allready have a hardened gear.

Doug, performance distributors still uses the junk gears made in the usa.
You had better check your camshaft & distributor gears for any scoring especially on the distributor gear. Since i put a new gear on the distributor there is almost no play in the gear area.
But the problem is damage was still done to the camshaft gear, though not as bad as the driven gear.
Down the road i will still have to replace the camshaft due to this wear.
I plan to order a crow cams hardened distributor gear for future use.
What is the problem the gear or & the camshaft?????
John i run a stock melling oil pump. 45 psi hot.
Doug i have the yella-terra rockers already restricted. But no change in oil pressure, just enough to stop the flooding of oil to the top end.
Thanks for your concern, Bill

 

[Stubby]

Bill, looking at the pic, it looks like there is more wear towards the top of the teeth. This might indicate that the dist gear is setting too low.

When you built the engine, did you try putting some dye on the gears and check the alignment? You have to be careful trying to set the depth on these engines. It appears that the gear rides against the block. Basicly, the block is the thrust surface.

Several years back, the 2.3 builders had similar wear problems with the auxilary shafts. I never experienced the problems with the 2.3, so I can't offer a firsthand account.

I have seen abnormal wear on several engines and allways suspected the cams. I have also seen the high volume pump problems.

Another possible solution. Check for oiling for the gear. Some engines have an oil groove or hole of some sort that helps lubricate the gears. The factory oiling for these gears might not be adequate for high spring pressures and increased RPMs.

As for bad cams, there aren't many companies that grind or make cores for the Ford six cams. I don't know who uses what, or even who makes them. I know I have seen higher wear on the typical cams than I used to see. Even on the lobes. This observation was made nine years ago, I am sure it has gotten worse since this is a profit driven industry and the suppliers often look for cheaper cores.

I would say, push the manufacturers to do the right thing. That should , at the least, get them to scrutinise their process. We should also look for ways to improve oiling to help the situation as much as possible.
If I were going to try to change the cam and gear to make it better, I would consider a dryfilm lubricant of some type.

 

[66Sprinter]

Been watching this post carefully. Putting together a new engine and using a Clay Smith 268 cam. I was going to use the original dizzy on my 200 but was considering a DUI as an upgrade for my daily driver with a little more pep. (I am also using dual timing and roller rockers)

I too wondered if anyone had used Dykem or bluing to check position and contact surface.

Is this phenom only for the HI-po engines run at higher revs.

Any thoughts for us out there as we prepare the new engines? Special prep or considerations.

 

[AzCoupe]

I sent Clay Smith a copy of the recent post last week and asked them to check into it. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if they found out anything. I do know that only two companies make billits for the small six, but not sure which one Clay Smith uses. Hopefully I'll get some answers tomorrow.

I'll also discuss the problem with Performance Distributors and see which gears they use. I know they have hardened steel gears but don't know if they come standard on their dizzys or who makes them. I have four of the hardened gears in stock.

I'm really curious how many guys are having an issue, and if it's only happening when installing a hipo cam. May not be a bad idea for some of our members to pop off the dizzy cap, check for play in the rotor, and report their findings.

I'll keep on this until we get some answers.

 

[66Sprinter]

Thanks Mike, appreciate your looking into this on our behalf.

Jim

 

[wsa111]

Mike, the camshaft scoring is mostly cosmetic, after i put in a new gear there was no play at all.
I am going to check the length of the hex drive to see if is too long & binding the oil pump.
When i tear the engine down next, i will inspect the oil pump for gear wear. I will also go from a melling pump to another brand.
I also had wear on my first camshaft & distributor gear when the engine was first done & that was a crane cam years ago.
Someone needs to run a rockwell C scale hardness test on these gears.
I wonder if it would help to harden these gears, by carburizing or nitriding them. Its been so long since since i had this subject in college.
What is crow doing to their gears, DG2A
I know comp cams has a polomer gear for small block ford & chevys.
Crane has a coated gear for the same engines that can be used on a cast flat lifter cam or a steel billet camshaft using rollers.

Mike, i hope someone can shed some light on this problem.

Its easy to check for excessive gear wear, just remove the cap & rotate the rotor, the only movement should be in the centrifigul advance.

I found out that there was some kind of a problem when i put a timing light on the engine. I had the initial at 16 & the total was 36 degrees. When i checked it yesterday i had 14 initial & 34 total, thats what got me started on the witch hunt.

Thanks for all the comments & ideas, just need the answer, Bill

 

[AzCoupe]

I just called Will and had him check the cam that came out of the old Falcon motor. He used a Clay Smith 274 for nearly four years, with a lot of hard passes on it. He said it looked like new and had no signs of wear what so ever. The dizzy gear, which was a stock DSII, also looked fine.

My guess is its the dizzy end play, oil pump, or not enough oil splash getting to the gears. However, I'll keep digging on my end for more info on the hardness of the cam and the various dizzy gears. And/or any recomendations or thoughts Clay Smith might have.

 

[rbohm]

no one has asked about the oil pump.

My understanding is that a "high volume" performance oil pump will toast the dizzy/cam gears in short order. However that statement came from Clifford Performance, so take a grain of salt or not according to your view.

What are you running?

John

8) john, high volume oil pumps are definitely causing the same problem with small block fords, especially the 351w.

 

[wsa111]

What brand of oil pump do you fellas have & do not have distributor gear wear.
I have a melling pump on mine. I will go to a different pump soon.

Just trying to get to the cause of the problem. Bill

 

[addo]

Bill, this may play into the situation I touched on the other week, of the oil pump reaching maximum pressure and the bypass not releasing all the excess load - causing the pump to "chafe" on the drive mechanism...

 

[Anonymous]

I just checked mine and it doenst have any abnormal wear on it. Its a Clay Smith 274 cam that I've ran for 2 years now.

20W50 Valvoline racing oil and its running 55 psi hot @ 3500 rpms.

Be aware that there is a port in the lifter valley that empties oil directly onto the distro & cam gear after it comes out of the rocker arm shaft assy and runs down the pushrod openings in the head.

Later,

Doug

 

[66 E100 Pickup]

What brand of oil pump do you fellas have & do not have distributor gear wear.

My current project will get a stock Melling pump, new DSII, and an Isky Mile-a-Mor cam. This is a 240 engine built for torque and less than 4000 rpm operation.

John

 

[AzCoupe]

Bill, this may play into the situation I touched on the other week, of the oil pump reaching maximum pressure and the bypass not releasing all the excess load - causing the pump to "chafe" on the drive mechanism...

If I remember correctly, you are using custom pushrods with a reduced orfice. If what Addo is saying is an issue, then this would only worsen the problem. Plus the fact that you have reduced the oil flow to the rocker assembly, as well as to the gears. Double Jeopardy?

Maybe this is why the stock rocker assemblies used a cap on the #1 pedestal with a oil relief hole? Not only would it assist in relieving excessive oil pressure, it also dumps the oil at the front of the head, over the gears.