Blowing 3 Gees on my Six

[Luke76]

Well it's been a while on this project, but progress is slowly being made. I purchased a used cylinder head that was found locally and decided to save the shipping to Arizona. Instead on the recommendation of another sixer here on the forums, I sent it to Portland Engine Rebuilders and they are doing all the porting work, valve jobs, 2V conversion, etc... I am told it is nearly completed.

My idea had been to buy the RAS rockers but as you probably know Mike is replacing those with Classic Inlines rockers, and he's told me I'll be getting a set soon, or whenever they come in. They will be 1.65 ratio. Once I have those and the cylinder head I can begin the transformation!

Ok, I do have one question though, and that concerns the new carb. I'll be going with an Autolite 2100 from Pony Carbs. I'm just wondering about the CFM needs for this application, and I don't want to make a mistake here.

In the "Selecting the Right Carburetor" section of the Classic Inlines tech pages, it lists anywhere from 295-420 CFM on a 250 ci for a modified log head, depending on type. He says large valves would be 345 on up. My log head will be highly modified and have large valves. Final compression ratio hasn't yet been measured but indications are it will be close to 9:1.

Likewise, on the CFM Calculation page, it indicates a 250 ci should get 347 CFM even at only 80% volumetric efficiency. Probably my modified head will have at least 80% VE, and likely more. So, from these two sources I'd say I should get an Autolite 1.21 which has a flow of 351 CFM.

However, the only thing making me think twice about this is this comment from the Classic Inlines shop, on the Autolite page:

While 287cfm may work on a modified log head, it is well suited for use with our new aluminum cylinder head, along with our 2V intake manifold, a performance cam, headers, and a 9-9.5 compression ratio. However we recommend the 240cfm or 245cfm carbs for most street applications where bottom end power and good throttle response are desired.

Well good heavens, that's quite a difference! Surely this description must have been directed at the 200ci engine and not the 250?

I don't want to go overboard on the carb but then again I also don't want to limit performance on the induction side after having done all this other work on the engine. What do folks say, is 350 CFM going to be too radical for this application, or just right?



Luke

 

[bubba22349]

I would say that the 351 CFM should work good. Have you checked in the old postings for others that have a combo close to yours?

 

[MustangSix]

Granada's are cool!

I'm not sure what the all up weight of a Granada is, but I suspect it's less than you think. A 250 with an AOD and 3.55 or 3.73 gears would actually be pretty quick.

If I were doing this I'd try to shoot for about 9:1 on the compression to use regular gas, an Autolite 2bbl carb, and a pretty mild cam, maybe something around 260-264 degrees advertised duration. Make sure you use the early pre-69 timing gears. You should be able to get over 20mpg in normal driving with no sweat at all.

You can do the "Shelby Drop" on the upper control arms ala the 67-70 Mustangs. Mustang sway bars will fit to tighten up the handling. Hey, You already have Granada brakes! A 1 1/8" Lincoln LSC master cylinder will firm up the feel on those.

Have fun! This should be a great project.

 

[MPGmustang]

I think the 351 would be good also, i'm curious are you still going with the DUI or are you sticking with your current setup? if it's current, try finding a 40k coil, the extra spark will help alot and it's a cheap upgrade for your ignition, along with advancing it to 12-14*.

just my 2cents...

Richard

 

[Luke76]

Ok guys, no one dropped dead at the mention of the 351 carb, so that's what I'll go with. Bubba, I did do some searching of the old posts but I didn't find anything specific about the CFM as it applied to this sort of setup, but not to say I didn't just overlook it. The forums here are massive.

Richard, I'm sticking with the DUI, in fact it's already installed. I acquired it before I started on this larger upgrade project, paid for from money I made on a small side-job, and although it might be a bit overkill, I figure I might as well keep it.

MustangSix, thanks for the suggestion about the Lincoln master cylinder, I'm going to have to do some more research on that. I've not been very satisfied with the feel of the brakes on this thing. You're right, they're just mushy - yes, even after all the brake lines were replaced and the system bled. Any certain year of Lincoln I should be looking for? I'll see if there's any more info on the net about this...


Luke

 

[bubba22349]

Ok guys, no one dropped dead at the mention of the 351 carb, so that's what I'll go with. Bubba, I did do some searching of the old posts but I didn't find anything specific about the CFM as it applied to this sort of setup, but not to say I didn't just overlook it. The forums here are massive.

Your right there is a lot of info here :wow: and it can take some time to find things been researching for my drag car build too. So far have only made it though about 1/3 of the posts but have found several good ones. Good Luck sounds like its going to be a great combo

 

[MustangSix]

MustangSix, thanks for the suggestion about the Lincoln master cylinder, I'm going to have to do some more research on that. I've not been very satisfied with the feel of the brakes on this thing. You're right, they're just mushy - yes, even after all the brake lines were replaced and the system bled. Any certain year of Lincoln I should be looking for? I'll see if there's any more info on the net about this...


Luke

The 87 Lincoln Mk VII LSC master cylinder has a bigger 1 1/8" bore. The extra volume takes care of the "mush", although the pedal will be a bit firmer and take a bit more effort. It will feel more like a modern vehicle.

The problem is that I think the fittings are on the wrong side of the MC and one of them might be a different size. I don't know the application, but I'm sure there must be a 1 1/8" Ford MC that bolts on, probably from a truck application.

 

[Luke76]

Well, after I don't know how many months, I've finally got my replacement cylinder head back from the shop. The work was done by Portland Engine Rebuilders in Portland, Oregon. I'm no expert but I think it's clear they do quality work, nevertheless, my experience with them is probably not something I would like to repeat. They simply would not communicate with me about the process, didn't answer or return calls, had no desire to consult on various aspects, and proceeded ahead with their own assumptions instead of asking me when issues arose. Like many things in life, it pays to know precisely what you want before-hand and to spell it out to the Nth degree to whoever is doing your work, rather than hoping they will have a dialogue with you.

One thing I requested which does not appear to have been done is gasket-matching the exhaust ports. In fact I can't tell that they did any porting whatsoever on the exhaust side. I've posted a few pictures below, also, there are larger versions in my photo-log here: Luke's Granada Restoration photo log.

Looking at the metal around the exhaust ports I don't know how much could really have been shaved away while still leaving the walls adequately strong. However gasket-matching the exhaust is something discussed in the Falcon Six handbook and there are even pictures in there, so I know it can be done. What do folks say, should I take this to another machine shop and have them do some more porting on the exhaust?

I've also posted a couple photos of the 2V conversion, which seems to have gone well, although they did have to use a different bolt pattern than provided to get it firmly attached to the log. Also put a picture of my Classic Inline headers. All I'm waiting on now are the CI rockers, and my Pony carb. God only knows when those things will arrive.


Luke

Here one can see the exhaust ports have not been gasket-matched.

A view of the 2V plate. The original mounting holes were spaced too wide for my head, so they were filled in and narrower ones were drilled. The shop also told me they went ahead and epoxied the new bolts in, so the plate is pretty much permanent.

Here's my headers with the 2.25" Y-kit.

 

[drag-200stang]

Luke,

From what I can see, it looks like they know what they're doing and they did a nice job on the 2 barrel adapter. Of course, anything can be improved on. That's just more time, right? Don't get hung up on this gasket matching stuff. That might apply on the intake side but on the exhaust it may even hurt you. Depending on how much you cam it, the smaller port compared to the header tube will make a ledge that will help with exhaust gas reversion during overlap. The gasket is not really what you're trying to line up, its the header tubes and generally they're plenty big. The gasket looks like it overhangs the center 2 exhaust ports. Wouldn't hurt to trim that back some. Also, on the 2 center ports - the port divider looks to be shrouding the port some. I usually shape it so that its the same square shape like the other ports. If you want to do something, get a 6" long 1/4", maybe 5/16", flame shaped solid carbide, double cut, cutter and open up the exhaust ports just a little bit. The walls are thin, don't cause trouble. Keep the same basic shape. Forget that round matching stuff. If you notice on the ports, there is a bump. That's to direct the flow in the direction of the stock cast iron manifold. If your headers don't go the same way, you can soften that bump some. When in doubt, do less, but anything should help.

 

[Luke76]

Drag, thanks for the reply. I've posted a photo of the port divider. Ports 3 & 4 certainly have a smaller opening than even the stock holes on the other ports. It appears the divider may not have had much hand-filing done to it before fitting. If you look at the photo on the Classic Inlines page, their divider is installed much more snug than this one (see here).

I've decided to look around for a shop locally that can maybe just enlarge 3 & 4 a bit, but I'll probably leave the others alone. I considered taking your suggestions and trying this myself, but I don't have access to any compressed air and I can't really imagine doing all that grinding with an electric drill.

Another thing which I tried to show in the photo is what the divider looks like inside the port. There is certainly not a smooth transition from the walls of the exhaust port to the "ramp" of the divider. I wonder what might happen if I filled the gap in with some JB Weld? I know people have complained about their dividers coming loose when they attached them with JB Weld, but in this case, the metal filler wouldn't be serving any structural purpose, just filling in the gaps to smooth out the flow. But I'd also hate to have clumps of JB Weld come loose too...

At any rate, in its present state it's clear 3 & 4 have a more restrictive exhaust path than the other cylinders. The headers are going to help no matter what, but I figure if I've come this far and spent this much, it probably pays to have everything done right, especially since the head is still off the engine.

Closeup of port divider.

A view into #3 exhaust port, showing the poor fit of the divider and the exhaust tunnel.

 

[JackFish]

That port divider is not an item that requires fine tolerances.
How much time do you want to pay for them to spend on it?

 

[Luke76]

I'm not interested in the tolerances, I'm interested in having adequate and equal exhaust flow through all six ports, without obstruction.

And I don't want to pay anyone anything, I'd have preferred the original machine shop had done a better job the first time around...

However, if it seems like I'm being too nitpicky here, you guys can let me know. I'm pretty much a rank novice when it comes to internal combustion engines, maybe these are fine details that will make no big difference. What I do know is I've already spent $1,200 on this head and it would be a shame for it not to be significantly improved after all that. I'm willing to spend more if that's what it takes to get it done right. $1,400 well done is better than $1,200 medium-rare.

Luke

 

[JackFish]

The laws of diminishing returns become invoked at some point.
They could probably spend another hour on it, but it's doubtful that that would translate to any noticeable performance gain.
Here's some shots of mine:

 

[Luke76]

Thanks Jack, I really appreciate the photos. It's good to compare one's engine with others to get a point of reference of where I'm at. Your exhaust ports 3 & 4 look larger than mine, but I can tell they are still slightly smaller than the remaining exhaust tunnels. This may simply be an unavoidable consequence of the port divider. In fact I wasn't even sure I wanted to include it, given the ambiguous results of other Ford Sixers. I told the shop to save it for last, let me know how big my bill had run up to, and I'd decide if I wanted it then or not, but they went ahead and added it without consultation. I'm not upset it's installed, but it's just an example of the poor communication. They also determined on their own how much to mill the head without consultation first. They arrived at an amount pretty close to what I would have decided, but not exactly, and again it was frustrating that we missed a better result simply because they didn't want to spend five minutes on the phone. This wasn't something I could have instructed them on from the beginning, because we had to wait to CC the chambers until after the porting was done. In the end it looks like I'll get somewhere around 8.7:1, though I was shooting for 9:1. I guess I can always deck the block at some future date to make up the difference.

Anyway... I'm definitely not taking this thing all the way up to Portland again. I'm not sure there's really any place local that wants to do porting, the places I called today didn't want to bother with it. I have a few more leads which I'll chase down early next week. If nothing pans out, I guess I'll call it good. The head is definitely not stock, they did a good job on the 2V conversion, and lots of good porting around the valve guides too. I had the oversize valves installed as well, and a valve job. So surely these things will make a noticeable difference.


Luke

 

[JackFish]

Have you seen all the valve guide bosses?
Like did they give it back with the valves installed?
Pocket porting is something that's IMHO is worth it on these heads.

 

[Luke76]

Yes, the head was returned with all the valves installed. I purchased the valves from Classic Inlines (1.75" intake, 1.5" exhaust) and they installed those as part of the work. With the valves installed it's hard to look in and see the guide bosses, but yes, they did smooth them all out. Here is a photo of the #1 exhaust guide, they did a pretty good job looks like to me. The red stuff is the assembly lube, of course.

 

[Luke76]

Earlier this week I went and spoke with a guy who runs a porting business from his garage, Portflow Technologies, in Albany, Oregon. I don't think he even has a website, but came recommended to me from a local machine shop. He went over the head and checked out the port divider. His advice to me was that it was not worth it to do additional porting at this stage, especially given the type of build I'm doing. He did note that the divider was poorly installed and pointed out to me that there was such a large gap between the horizontal divider plate and the top of the exhaust tunnel that actually the 3 & 4 ports are not divided. But anyway, at this point it is what it is and it would be expensive and perhaps not to any point to grind away on it more.

That's basically the advice I'm getting here as well - so, I'm calling the porting work done.

In other news... Pony called the other day and the carb is shipping. I had a heck of a time buying a carb from them, this was a few weeks ago when I called them. The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc... I had to argue with him for about 30 minutes before he finally gave in, and said he'd have to call Mike at CI to get the scoop on what these people were up to. I've never had such a hard time getting someone to take four hundred bucks off me.

The only piece I'm waiting on now are the new rocker arms from Classic Inlines... I know they are supposed to come out soon but I gather there must be delays somewhere.


Luke

 

[mugsy]

The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc...

Sounds like the same arrogant SOB I dealt with there named "Jon". Good luck if you have any technical difficulties. He'll only become a bigger SOB. And I bought a stock 1V from them that ran worse than the 1940 it replaced.

 

[JackFish]

In other news... Pony called the other day and the carb is shipping. I had a heck of a time buying a carb from them, this was a few weeks ago when I called them. The guy on the phone didn't understand the concept behind what Classic Inlines is calling a "2V conversion", he told me he refused to sell me something when he knew it wouldn't work, etc, etc... I had to argue with him for about 30 minutes before he finally gave in, and said he'd have to call Mike at CI to get the scoop on what these people were up to. I've never had such a hard time getting someone to take four hundred bucks off me.Luke

I could be quoting any number of threads with a similar story.

 

[Explorer]

Setting the availability issue aside, one of your first posts, you said you could not afford the CI aluminum head. As of last week you posted having $1200 invested in this head. In hindsight, do you feel you made the right decision? Not being sarcastic, truly curious. I have two more builds in the future, first just a minor upgrade, but the second will be rather extensive. Trying to decide if I wish to get on the waiting list or explore other options.