Blowing 3 Gees on my Six

[Luke76]

Bubba, thanks so much for that, it confirms what I suspected and means it should be easy to fix. When I did my brief test drive it was in fact just dangling. At one point I stopped and crawled under the car and manually pushed the lever up, but I bet it just fell down again when I took off. On the stock setup there was a spring attached to the downshift "bar" that would have kept the lever up until full throttle. I can probably just attach this spring to the lever itself, so that it's always kept up.

As soon as I get the car back from the shop I'll try it. I'll still try setting up the downshift linkage but it will be good to know if the whole thing turns into a huge pain that I can just dispense with it.

Luke

 

[bubba22349]

Yeah that will work I used to some times tie them up with piece of wire until got linkage right. you are making great progress.

 

[PhantomAce]

Luke76:
I wasn't considering the kickdown lever. But, it isn't a concern on mine, as it is a manual trans.
(Will be either the SROD I already have, or a T5 if I can find a good one at a price I can live with.)
Carb I'm using is a Motorcraft off a Marine 302. (Basically, a 350cfm 2 barrel carb off a boat.)
It's getting direct mounted to a C9 head.

I have the same issue with the PCV coming off the plate below the carb directly into the side of the valve cover, so seeing yours plugged and machined was definitely a help for me, I want to thank you for that pic!

 

[MPGmustang]

is it done yet?

 

[Luke76]

Oh how I wish! Today marks week #8 the car has been in the shop getting the exhaust installed. My mechanic hasn't been working on it all that time, he gets busy with other projects, and I don't think this one is at the top of his list. However, the exhaust has become rather complicated, we've already had to go to a smaller starter, reroute the transmission oil cooler lines, reroute some radiator hoses, and, worst of all, ditch A/C for the time being. I don't know whether we'll figure out a way to get the A/C to fit in the end, but I will tackle it later when I have more money (and when the weather isn't so cold ).

I'm also still waiting on the roller rockers, ordered 8 months ago! I think they are nearly complete but I also know Mike is very busy. It would be great if they came in by Christmas, but who knows...

I did get a sub built for the trunk though. Will be fun to test that out when I get the car back.


Luke

 

[Luke76]

I have a few odds and ends from the project that I'm trying to clear out of the "workshop", I posted them in the for sale section if anyone is interested. Click here.

Still no update on the beast herself!


Luke

 

[MPGmustang]

is it done yet?

been a couple... more than a couple months... I'm still waiting on the nice pictures you promised...

 

[Luke76]

Yes Richard, it has been quite some time. To bring the story up to date since the last post:

The headers weren't finished until nearly February of this year, so the car sat in the garage for about 4 months total for that job. Next time (there won't be a next time) I'd take it to a real exhaust shop rather than my usual mechanic...

By the time I got it back from the header work, Mike and I thought the new rockers were nearly done. I never ran the car after the exhaust was put on, I had a bunch of stuff off the top to make it easy to work on, and I figured if I was just going to install the new rockers in short order, no need to put it all back together.

Fast forward to now, another six months later. For various reasons it took longer than we thought to have the rockers ready. I only received them last week. In total I waited almost 16 months for the rockers, but this is because I originally ordered the RAS versions, which were just then discontinued, and agreed to wait while Mike developed his in-house version. Although it was a long wait, I must let people know that Mike has always been very good about communicating with me over this entire time. I probably have close to 50 emails from him over the last year. I pestered him for updates constantly and he replied each time, and never got frustrated. Knowing he hadn't forgotten me was always reassuring, and he came through in the end as he promised.

Well these babies in hand I wasn't going to wait any longer, I pulled the ol' Granada out of mothballs this weekend and promptly set to installing the rockers. Unfortunately it did not take long to realize that the pushrods I ordered (stock length for 250 ci) were going to be too long. I actually pretty much turned them all into bananas in my haste and ignorance.

So no go... I've contacted Mike about some shorter rods and as soon as I get those I should have this sucker running in no time.

For those interested, I only had my head milled by 0.055". Replacing the stock head gasket with a Victor I gained perhaps 0.02". Net reduction in height 0.035", which isn't much, and which is why I figured the stock length rods would be fine. However, they were really way too long. Even if I removed the entire ball from the rocker arm, the pushrod would still jam into the arm itself. I guess the geometry of the new arm might just make the pushrod side sit lower than the stock arms. Something to think about for those who might buy these rockers in the future. At the least get yourself an adjustable rod and check the length first, before bending a nice set of new rods like I did.

That brings us up to date. I'll take some photos soon. Richard you've already seen these rockers, so you know they look quite nice and are extremely stout.


Luke

 

[woodbutcher]

Hi Luke76.Whats that they say about"The best laid plans of mice and men"?
As for Mike.All that I have to say is he is for sure 5 star rated.The best.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

 

[bmbm40]

I wondered where you were on this. Can't wait for feedback on how fast it goes.

 

[MPGmustang]

Yes Richard, it has been quite some time.

sorry I just get excited when I hear fun upgrades and really wanted to know if you got it going yet, I'm positive you're anxious... if not then i'll be anxious for the both of us.. lol

Yes I even think I tested those rockers on a dyno as Mike really wanted to make sure they worked perfectly (something bout cross'n his t's and dotting his i's), yes they do work but sadly it was with a tiny carb and didn't show any increase in HP. next time I try them I'll have a larger carb (almost 3 times the size...)

I intened to get a set also, and show some dyno results between the two sets (with the bigger carb).

I have non-adjustible and needed shorter rods too, along with cup type pushrods. intresting that the 250 would need shorter ones also. bummers

I must let people know that Mike has always been very good about communicating

I agree, Mike has always been there and is a great guy that cares about all his customers.

Sounds like the turtle will win the race after all, slow and steady, I hope it hits the road soon. thanks for the update!

 

[Luke76]

Richard I have been following your thread as well with interest. We both have done a similar set of modifications so I have been quite curious to read your dyno results. The big difference of course is that you have a 200, and you've also changed the cam. Other than that we've both installed DUI, ported the head, done the 2V conversion, and added headers. You've also tested these exact same rockers I now have. I believe Mike has one more prototype set so hopefully you can continue to test their effectiveness as you move forward.

Your "More Power" thread has left us all hanging, as you have just gotten to the most exciting part... I hope you can get back to the dyno room soon with some bigger carbs, now that your head mods are done.

Luke

EDIT: Just saw your thread on the ring gears... that explains why no dyno testing!

 

[MPGmustang]

Your "More Power" thread has left us all hanging

thanks, I too am very anxious to get back to it. it's way more intresting than the ring gear/starter issues I'm been battling...

I hope when you're done you'll take your's down to the dyno. I'm very curious to the results. but more importantly what changes in mpg you acheive. I keep info on the changes vs mpg... it's not perfect driving as the more HP I get the harder it is to keep out of the pedal, and with that fact it's amazing that it has stayed relativly the same since the 1100v and t-5...

so when might you be getting your shorter rods?
besides those, are you waiting on anything else?
and last, have you figured out a solution to your AC compressor? I forget what type you have...

side note, I rememberd that you had to take the AC compressor out, what was the issue? did it fit where the alt goes and lifts the alt up higher closer (if not touching) to the header? cause I had the same problem, I just took the braket to a metal shop and for $40 they moved the bolt holes out 1.5 inch's, it's close to the battery, but that will some day be relocated to the rear...

thanks for the update Luke

 

[xctasy]

9.62 was the stock length for our Aussie 250 engines. The US one had a 9.469" deck verses our 9.38" deck. So as long as you use the reversed ball and cup rocker arrangement of the Aussie vesion, or maybee use the ealier pre 1964.5 144/170 adjustable rocker arms, you could get shorter ones off the shelf.

 

[Luke76]

Well right when things look promising, you always find some other devil...

My shorter pushrods arrived from Mike today, that guy is fast! I couldn't wait to install them so I went straight to it. These are 3/8" shorter and are a much better fit. I tightened them loosely according to the procedure then cranked over the engine and let her run for about 10 minutes. This is the first time she's run in almost one year. The new exhaust sounded great, no bad sounds coming from the engine, everything was smooth as silk and I was very pleased.

I didn't drive the car anywhere, just let her warm up and I shut her down after about 10 minutes. At that point I popped the valve cover and started going through the procedure to tighten the rocker arm adjusters one by one while it was still hot.

In the process of doing this, I noticed some foreign object sticking out of one of the valve springs. I attached a picture of it below. It looks like part of the valve stem seal.

On closer inspection I saw similar matter on several valves. It is very hard to see between the spring coils, but at least one valve appeared to my bald eyes as if the stem might be bent. I will have to do a closer inspection tomorrow because it's getting dark and I'm too afraid to look any further tonight, my heart has already sunk pretty low already.

My thought is that last weekend when I had the pushrods that were too long, and I cranked the engine over several times, and bent the rods, that I might have also bent and/or damaged my valve stems somehow. Does anyone care to tell me what kind of s*hole I might be in if so? Maybe I am thinking the worst but if I bent the valve stems, I might have damaged the stem guide holes, and hence, toasted the entire head for all I know.

Any thoughts would be appreciated - or advice on what I should look for when I go back out tomorrow.


Material dangling out my valve spring (Click to Enlarge)

 

[Luke76]

After thinking about it, and calming down a bit, I've realized that no matter how major or minor the damage, I'm going to have to pull the head to know. I've accepted that I'm not going to be driving this thing any time soon. I've waited a year, I can wait a few more months. Tomorrow I'll get the head off, and I've already ordered a replacement gasket. To be safe I'm going to take the head into a shop even if to me everything looks ok, but I'm pretty sure I saw a bent valve so it's clearly going to need some work. I can't think of anything else that would chew up a Viton seal unless some severe distortion occurred on the stem. There's nothing else that can even touch the seal other than the stem.

I'm over the setback, and ready to keep working. At this point I just hope I won't need a new head... I'm a grown man but you might just see me cry if I do. I already know my wallet can't bear such news.


Luke

 

[MPGmustang]

Luke I hear ya man, my 4cyl t-5 is so messed up that I need a new transmission or spend more just getthig this one fixed... the setback is costing more than my wallet can dish which means I have to wait longer. it's disheartening to have to go through, and at times just frustrating.

on the head, you can replace the valve guides, I had new guides installed from Elmo (Mike's Awesome head builder) then took it to the machine shop and was going to have them finish it, but they reemed the holes out crooked so I took it back to Elmo and he installed new guides and finished the head properly. so I'm sure you can keep using your head. (wouldn't want to loose your head now...)

hopefully maybe it only bent the retainers that holds the spring down, to see you can use the rope trick and take off a spring retainer and the rest of the valve stem bushing. I have seen this happen on my dads 354 packard v8 when tore it down to be rebuilt it had 8 bent push rods (2 broken) and still ran and drove for the first week we got it before tearing it down (man did it sound bad... ). 5 of the spring retainers were bent. I don't recall the valve stems but I'm sure we replaced them anyways when he had the heads cleaned up.

Good Luck and here's hoping for the best

Richard

 

[bmbm40]

Sorry to hear that. Good luck.

 

[Luke76]

I got the head pulled today. Always seems like you have to remove half the engine bay to get it out. At least I guess I can say I am getting familiar with this kind of thing, I had it off before noon.

All the valve seals are clearly mangled on top. There is a piece of the retainer that sits down inside the spring and I can see if it were compressed enough it would hit the top of the valve seal. I am starting to feel hopeful that maybe all I did was goof the seals and the valves might be ok. On closer visual inspection I can't really say any of them look bent. I haven't removed any valves or springs as I have had bad luck with that before (I don't have the right tools), so I'll just take it to a shop.

I thought I'd post a few photos of the rocker arms taken this morning before I removed the head. The new pushrods Mike sent me were 3/8" shorter than the stock. That's quite a bit, 1/4 would probably have been better, but it's all he had on hand. You can see the adjustable ball on the rocker arm is able to take up all the slack, and they seemed to run fine. Still, I'm wondering if a slightly longer pushrod might be best, it would get the ball up closer to the bottom of the arm, and reduce some of the weird angle you get with the ball so low.

Richard, do you remember how far down you had to adjust the balls on these arms when you ran the rockers?

Luke


(Click to Enlarge)


Note due to the rods being so short, and the ball on the arm sticking down so low, the rods actually angle in towards the rocker shaft. (Click to Enlarge)


This is how far I have the balls adjusted down. I'm wondering if the arms might work more efficiently if the ball is closer to the actual arm itself, rather than so far away. The way it is now might create a weird fulcrum/leverage situation. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid. (Click to Enlarge)

 

[MPGmustang]

When I installed the rockers I too had to adjust them down far, it ran fine on the dyno but I agree MAYBE a 1/4 longer would be best, I would try to keep as much thread as possible in contact. but IMHO I think they ran just fine and will be fine.

maybe some one with more knowledge can chime in and state thier opinions.

(on the other hand, I really want a set now that I see them again...)

Edit: IIRC the oil thur lifters are 1/4 inch taller, so you could go either way. and the oil thru vs non-oil liftes will work fine.