Blowing 3 Gees on my Six

[bubba22349]

My best guess is that it is some weird harmonic from the exhaust. Maybe due to the fact that 3 & 4 exhaust are connected at the manifold due to the divider being poorly installed by PER, or maybe this is just the way headers sound - I wouldn't know since I've never had headers before. You don't really hear the throbbing sounds out the tailpipe, but maybe the muffler removes it by then.

Headers do sound different due to the thinner metal compared to a cast iron exhaust man. They can have a pulse sound or tick usually you can just hardly hear it sanding (hood shut) next to car or sitting inside at idle or low speed.

Any thoughts on that one? My guess is that maybe I have a rocker adjusted a bit too loose (I have been a bit paranoid about overtightening them). I can't get the sound to occur when the car is stopped, so I can't put my ear to the valve cover and try to hear which one. Should I just go through and tighten them all maybe one quarter turn more? Again I'm paranoid of breaking something, and I don't want to bend any rods again...

I always set them engine warmed up and running (at idle) works perfectly the only draw back is sometimes there's a little oil in spots to clean off.

 

[Luke76]

I always set them engine warmed up and running (at idle) works perfectly the only draw back is sometimes there's a little oil in spots to clean off.

Bubba, the thing is, they sound perfectly fine at idle, or even if I rev the engine in park. So as far as I can tell at the curb, they are set fine.

I've also always wondered how these things could be adjusted while the rockers are moving - if you see the photos above, the adjustment "screw" is at the end of the arm, so it would be popping up and down. Maybe I could keep a wrench on it if I tried... but in my mind it seems like a real trick to accomplish.

The method I used to tighten them was to let the engine warm up to operating temp, shut it off, tightened the arms until I couldn't spin the rod anymore by hand (I did this while they were still very hot to the touch), then I went 1/4 turn farther with a wrench, and snugged them down.

Now, as I say, there's no clacking other than while driving, so I have no way of knowing which one is loose at a stop, if indeed that is even the problem... Is there something else I should be looking for?


Luke

 

[MPGmustang]

Awesome pics, for the Dyno I tightened them 1/2 turn, didn't make any dif sound

 

[bubba22349]

I've also always wondered how these things could be adjusted while the rockers are moving - if you see the photos above, the adjustment "screw" is at the end of the arm, so it would be popping up and down. Maybe I could keep a wrench on it if I tried... but in my mind it seems like a real trick to accomplish.

It is harder running but unless you are using a much higher rpm (like with a race cam) its still doable.

The method I used to tighten them was to let the engine warm up to operating temp, shut it off, tightened the arms until I couldn't spin the rod anymore by hand (I did this while they were still very hot to the touch), then I went 1/4 turn farther with a wrench, and snugged them down.

That method should work!

Now, as I say, there's no clacking other than while driving, so I have no way of knowing which one is loose at a stop, if indeed that is even the problem... Is there something else I should be looking for?

If you have valve cover off you would rev engine up until it happens and watch for a rocker that has a little bounce to it this would be showing the extra slack or clearance in a rocker or rockers. If you are at 1/4 than you could go another 1/4 at a time up to 1 total though it's my belief that is better for performance to keep it at lowest setting that will work

 

[Luke76]

If you have valve cover off you would rev engine up until it happens and watch for a rocker that has a little bounce to it this would be showing the extra slack or clearance in a rocker or rockers. If you are at 1/4 than you could go another 1/4 at a time up to 1 total though it's my belief that is better for performance to keep it at lowest setting that will work

Ok Bubba, that is what I will try. I couldn't get the sound to occur even when revving it in park, but maybe if I pop the VC and look I might still see one rocker bouncing anyway. If I can't see anything I will just tighten them all down another 1/4. Too bad I can't stick my head in the engine bay while driving...

That looks great! How does it go?

I can't say I've tested it completely. There is a very bad hesitation right when you first hit the gas in 1st gear. I am going to stick some premium in this and see if I can advance the timing a bit, maybe that will help. Otherwise it might just be that my carb is slightly oversized. After the hesitation it does accelerate pretty good, better than before, but I have to say the seat-of-my-pants feeling doesn't quite live up to my expectations. Perhaps I didn't really know what to expect... but I was thinking I could at least get the rear tires to break free if I really punched it. However there are many adjustments yet to make so I am optimistic that I can improve this thing substantially. Also I am trying to go easy on it for a while as it breaks in.

If your ever in the Beaverton Area. Swing it by and I can lend an ear to help diagnose. Kev. just PM when your going to run through and I'll give you my cell. My Sunday's are swamped for the next few weeks so late saturday works best for the next few weeks.

Kevin, thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it. But right now I am having some problems with my transmission (unable to get into 3rd), so until I get that straightened out I won't be driving this thing very far at all...


Luke

 

[Luke76]

Ok, I looked at my rockers again and adjusted them once more and I really don't think that is the source of my clapping noise. Of course this is compounded by the fact it is nearly impossible to get the sound to occur under any condition involving the car being stopped.

The sound is what I would call a loud, sharp, clapping or clacking, very distinct, almost like a metal slap, as if someone were whacking my headers with a metal ruler. I tried to be very attentive to it while I drove around today (fixed the 3rd gear issue so I can roam around a bit more):

- It won't occur under 1,500 RPM
- At any RPM or speed, it never occurs under acceleration
- At any RPM or speed, it never occurs while coasting with foot off the gas
- Previously I thought it was most pronounced when I was holding a certain speed. Now I think it is actually most pronounced when I let off the gas slightly - still under power, just decelerating slowly. It is much louder the faster I am going to begin with (I haven't gone above 60mph)
- If I let off the gas completely, it disappears. If I let off the gas just a little bit, enough to very slowly decelerate, I can ride the clapping noise all the way down to about 1,500 RPM, and it gets quieter and quieter until it finally disappears. If at any point I give it gas to accelerate, it disappears immediately.

While driving, my ear seems to tell me the sound originates near the firewall, or in other words, towards the rear of the engine. Of course one's ears do play tricks on them... Is there something in a transmission that could make such a sound under these conditions?

I thought perhaps it could be an exhaust leak, but you'd think I'd hear that all the time. Valves you would probably hear all the time. Piston rod? Please don't feed my worst nightmares...

Surely it can't be my PCV valve going crazy? It rattles quite a bit but I can't imagine it would make such a racket as this. I really don't know what to think.


Luke


PS: My transmission issue was a disconnected vacuum hose at the rear of the C4... very hard to see back there, let alone reach it. I'm glad that's all it was. :duh:

 

[mugsy]

I'm not familiar with the tranny in your car but one time one of mine the converter was hitting the inspection cover. Removed the inspection cover and it went away.

With it only happening at cruise or less than cruiser that tells me when the engine rocks/twists under accel or decel then whatever is "hitting" has enough clearance to stop the contact. Curious...

The only other suggestion I have is to get a metal ruler and start to hit stuff. And see if it makes the same noise. Or better yet, have someone else hit stuff while you are sitting in the car. That way it will be closer to what is actually happening.

And I hear you about being underwhelmed by the performance. When I re-built mine I was hoping for a nice jump in performance and for it to pull real well. It's a ton better but not where I want it... oh well, part of the joy of sticking with a straight 6 and the log head.... a lower gear and triple 1 bbls are in the future

 

[Luke76]

Ok, I just noticed I'm leaking radiator fluid out the head gasket. Could a blown head gasket maybe cause the noise I'm hearing?

It seems a bit strange this thing is blown already. I'm wondering if something else is going on that caused it. Or maybe it was just a weak gasket, or I didn't have it aligned perfectly. The gasket packaging did look like it was from the 80s. But who knows... I'll examine it when I take it off and see what I can find. But if there is some obvious thing that it tells us to have a new gasket blow in three days, please let me know.

I don't know how many more times I can pull this head before I have to shoot myself... I guess the good thing is I can examine my lifters and see if my cam is ruined from the break-in...


Luke

 

[Luke76]

Just ran a compression test before I pull the head. These are the average of three readings:

Cylinder - PSI
#1 - 157
#2 - 173
#3 - 167
#4 - 170
#5 - 170
#6 - 168

#1 seems low... although the water looks more like it's coming out towards the rear, though I guess water travels and it's hard to tell.

Whenever I turn over the engine even just a few turns, I hear all kinds of water burbling and tinkling for a few moments after... I can't remember if that's normal or not.

Anyway, the head has to come off. Maybe I didn't torque the studs correctly, and I remember now I didn't chase the threads in the block first. I figured I didn't need to since I had just done so when I put the head on the first time, not that long ago, but maybe while it was off last week to put the lifters in some crud could have fallen in there... We'll see.


Luke

 

[Luke76]

I got the head off today. The gasket isn't blown, it was just leaking. I don't think I took quite the necessary care last time I installed the head. I will rectify that this time around.

While rooting around with my magnet I came across about a dozen of these shavings. They seemed a bit strange to me as they are all essentially identical. They seem kind of big and scary for a metal shaving... but there weren't that many of them either. I'm not sure what to think. They are ferrous, obviously, so not aluminum. They are smooth on one side and rough on the other, and bent like a banana - they look like they were just peeled off some surface by a sharp object. I can't tell where they came from - the rockers, lifters, and rods all look good. Don't see anything really wrong with the pistons either. Those are about the only moving parts I can see.

It was getting a bit dark... I will look closer tomorrow, maybe one of the new liters, being taller, was scraping the block on the up cycle? I really don't know whether to be worried or not...

Any ideas?



Click to Enlarge

 

[Luke76]

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me those shavings must be the result of a machining process - I just don't see how you'd get so many shavings all exactly the same size.

The valve guides were just machined a few weeks ago. The guy said he cleaned out the head afterwards, and I didn't see any chips at the time, but it stands to reason some could have fallen in here or there.

Maybe I'm just trying to reassure myself... comforting wisdom from my elders is certainly welcome.


Luke

 

[bubba22349]

I would say you are right that the shavings are from some type of machining. Where were they in the cooling passages (water) or the top of head (oil)? The bad thing there could be some more lurking around in there so you might want to try and clean it out in all the passages that would be connected (with some air, solvent, and or water). On the head gasket what type did you use? If possible try not to use an old head gasket that has been sitting on the shelf for decades, best to use fresh production stock.

 

[woodbutcher]

Hi Luke76.To my tired old eye,they look like shavings left over from a maching operation.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

 

[Luke76]

The shavings were on top of the head so in other words, in the oil passages. I cleaned everything as well as I could while the head was off, running a magnet down into the block where the lifters were and any other place I could reach, so I got as much of it out as I could.

Bubba, the head gasket I'm using is a Victor Reinz. I'm beginning to think these are no longer being produced and all the ones I've bought are NOS. I've gotten some from Rock Auto as well as eBay, and in either case, the packaging looks exactly as you have described, "sitting on the shelf for decades." The reason I've gone with the Victor gaskets is they have the thinnest compressed height and I'm trying to maximize my compression ratio.

However, after getting the head back on I already think this new gasket is leaking yet again, though I haven't driven much to confirm. If I need to pull the head again, I'm going to put in a FelPro I have which looks very new and has some fancy rubbery stuff imprinted onto it.

I've been taking a break from the engine the past few days to replace the entire front end suspension. Single-handedly, and without power tools, I have to confess this has been a very exhausting chore, which I have about 30 hours into so far. My whole body feels like I got the smack down from Rocky Balboa. But the end is in sight.

More engine updates to come... the bugs still aren't all worked out yet.


Luke

 

[bubba22349]

The Victor's were great I used them often though when the FelPro PurmA Torque head gaskets came out I tried one and liked them a lot (saved me loads of time) so I switched and never looked back (that is if they made one for the engines I had to work on). Still if you retorque the head bolts after a few heat cycles it should work ok and if not I used to use K & W block sealer on the real suborn ones.

 

[Luke76]

In fact I was thinking of doing a re-torque, I'm glad to hear that's acceptable practice...

 

[bubba22349]

It used to be the norm on all engines after the install of a new head gasket

 

[Luke76]

Should a re-torque ever be performed while the engine is hot? I don't know if this would be a good thing or bad?

 

[bubba22349]

I used to do it that way at least warmed up good to operating temps and especially for sure in the colder weather.

 

[Luke76]

Well, for all those legions of fans breathlessly waiting to hear what has become of the green Granada, I apologize for leaving you hanging these past few months.

Just for the sake of completeness of this thread, here's the update on how far I got in 2011.

If you recall I last left off with the new head and rockers all working, but I had a bizarre clacking noise that only occurred while driving at certain speeds or throttle settings. I could not figure out the source of this noise but after various tests and deductions I felt confident it wasn't in the head or valvetrain.

I finally took it to my mechanic for his expert advice. I told him to diagnose as much as he could without disassembling the engine since I'd rather do the work myself. He agreed that the Strange Clacking noise didn't seem to be coming from the head. He put a camera down the cylinders and told me he thought the cylinder walls were pretty scratched/scuffed/nicked/whatever. I could have seen this myself quite clearly on the countless times I had the head off, and in fact I did see it, but I figured they were just machining marks. I have no idea what a good cylinder looks like compared to a bad one.

Anyway, without puling the head again or getting into the block further his best guess was that I might have some piston slap going on.

By this time we were getting on into fall and I just decided to mothball the car for winter. I live in an apartment so pulling the engine here is not an option. When spring arrives I will see if I can't find some kind of garage to rent or something. My wife and I have also been wanting to move into a house but I don't know if that will happen this year or not.

So, 2011 recap:

Good News:
- Roller rockers finally arrived, work great.
- New CI exhaust works great. Pretty loud, but it sounds manly.
- Head work is pretty much wrapped up and there is a definite improvement in performance.
- Front suspension completely replaced, and it needed it since every last ball joint was blown. Beefier 1-1/8" swaybar installed and it made a substantial difference in cornering, I was very pleased with that.
- Stereo install completed

Bad News:
- Needs the block pulled, cylinder walls might need re-bored and honed

But, the Good News about the Bad News is:
- If the block has to come out, I have the excuse now to swap my cam and maybe do some decking. I had eliminated these things from my original plan because I intended the project to be head-only work at the beginning. But that no longer applies...


So the project is dragging out a bit longer than I had anticipated but a lot of work has been done. My challenge in 2012 will be to find a way to get the block out which means getting a garage one way or another. I intend to enlist more professional help going forward so as to hopefully avoid some of the idiotic mistakes I keep making. If I can get the bottom end straightened out and we don't find any other lurking devils then I think I will have this engine pretty well finished, and I can take my wife on Sunday drives again, which I suppose was the point in the first place.

Thanks to all who have helped me thus far, and my best to everyone for 2012!



Luke