All Small Six Choke Working Backwards

[Frank]

The fact that every rocker I can see clearly in the pic has the adjustment screw bottomed out as tight as it can go strongly suggests hydraulic lifters. I'd relash that no matter what, I don't like the look of that extreme rocker setting.
I prefer static lashing with the engine off, including hydraulic lifters.

 

[FuzzyDriver]

Ron: Adjusting lifters on running car while idling sure is fun. Back in the 70's I had to do this on my '64 Polara 318. That's a solid lifter engine. Never did hydraulic before and watching video's I got the impression that you can seriously mess up a valve train adjusting them when they are pumped up. That's my real issue - I don't want to damage anything.

Your aluminum engine ID tag is right there by the coil. See if you can get a clear picture of the numbers on it.

TrickSix: The tag was one of the first things I cleaned up and took a photo of. Here's a copy:

 

[FuzzyDriver]

The fact that every rocker I can see clearly in the pic has the adjustment screw bottomed out as tight as it can go strongly suggests hydraulic lifters. I'd relash that no matter what, I don't like the look of that extreme rocker setting.
I prefer static lashing with the engine off, including hydraulic lifters.

I'd be rich if I got a dollar for each messed up thing a PO did to this car. :^/

What lashing procedure do you recommend? I have the 1964 service manual if you think their procedure will work well on my baby.

 

[TrickSix]

1964 was a transitional year. You may have a solid lifter engine. How many frost plugs on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold?

 

[FuzzyDriver]

1964 was a transitional year. You may have a solid lifter engine. How many frost plugs on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold?

TrickSix: It's a 200 ci engine. They didn't put 170's in 1964 4-door Comets. It has 4 to answer your question. Also, it had that ugly 200 ci engine paint intended for mechanics so they could identify 144, 170, and 200's. Changed it to Ford blue.

Does freeze plug count give you lifter type?

 

[FuzzyDriver]

OK, I might have found an additional PO issue that may be causing my plugs to foul like crazy. I keep seeing engines with the PCV valve stuck into a hole at the firewall-end of the valve cover. My valve cover has no such hole. A box of take-offs was in my trunk when I got the car. Inside that box is a tube that I'm pretty sure was a crankcase vent downtube. The PCV hose running from the carburetor spacer routes to something (a PCV valve, I guess) stuck hard into a hole in the block at the forward, driver-side. I'm thinking that that was where a PO removed the downtube. Since it's not at the top of the valve cover, and it might not be a PCV valve, for that matter, could it be sucking misty oil into the intake? Regardless, given every other 200-6 PCV seems to be stuck in the valve cover, surely this isn't where it goes.

But, hey, I might be all wet.

I included part of the distributor so you can tell for sure where it is:

 

[TrickSix]

Yes, 144s, 170s, and early 200s have four main bearings and solid lifters. Three frost plugs is an external sign of this configuration. In 1964 200s were upgraded to seven main bearings and hydraulic lifters and got five external frost plugs. I'm not sure when the road draft tube was changed to a PCV in the valve cover, but it was an early change too. Sticking a PCV where the draft tube was is not stock.

 

[Frank]

OK, I might have found an additional PO issue that may be causing my plugs to foul like crazy. I keep seeing engines with the PCV valve stuck into a hole at the firewall-end of the valve cover. My valve cover has no such hole. A box of take-offs was in my trunk when I got the car. Inside that box is a tube that I'm pretty sure was a crankcase vent downtube. The PCV hose running from the carburetor spacer routes to something (a PCV valve, I guess) stuck hard into a hole in the block at the forward, driver-side. I'm thinking that that was where a PO removed the downtube. Since it's not at the top of the valve cover, and it might not be a PCV valve, for that matter, could it be sucking misty oil into the intake? Regardless, given every other 200-6 PCV seems to be stuck in the valve cover, surely this isn't where it goes.

But, hey, I might be all wet.

I included part of the distributor so you can tell for sure where it is:
View attachment 24050

Yes someone has put the PCV valve in the former draft tube location. that's probably not an issue of itself, since that spot is well baffled to prevent liquid oil escaping. HOWEVER there has to be another location into the crankcase that can maintain atmospheric pressure in the whole system. Note that PCV valves in the VC also have a second hole at the other end. If there is no provision for a second vent to the crankcase, then yes that system is causing issues. It causes a vacuum in the crankcase at idle- not all bad, but what is bad is that on hard acceleration there is backpressure in the crankcase, shoving oil past the rings into the cylinders. Do you have a vented oil cap on the VC or the flat sealed type? If the flat type replace it immediately with the tall type that has vent holes in the bottom lip. Check the PCV valve for cleanliness (spray brake clean or carb cleaner in it with the engine running, and place your thumb over it off/on to work the internal valve. No further changes are necessary.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, there was a short period of time when Ford used the original road draft tube for the "new" PCV system. Ford quickly changed the location of the PCV valve to the valve cover, and installed a freeze out plug in the old road draft tube opening, which is why we see the opening plugged on our engines. I agree that the rocker arm adjustment screws look very tight, but if the adjustment really is way to tight, the engine would not run, certainly wouldn't idle, and if it did run, it shake all over, and it wouldn't have any vacuum. I would put a vacuum gauge on it. Good luck

 

[TrickSix]

For those of you with an adjustable rocker assembly on hydraulic lifters, (and there should be several of you) where did the adjustment screws wind up on your engine?

 

[FuzzyDriver]

...five external frost plugs...
TrickSix: Looks like I missed a fifth freeze plug behind where the exhaust manifold drops down. Regardless, it's not three plugs for sure - there's four to see easily. Sorry I missed one.

Yes someone has put the PCV valve in the former draft tube location. (At least I got that part right.) that's probably not an issue of itself, since that spot is well baffled to prevent liquid oil escaping.
Frank: I was saying there's no hole at the back end of the valve cover. I don't know what the original oil-add cap was like, but I put an aftermarket vented chrome one on my valve cover last year. My valve cover would not take one of those flat caps; it has a 1-3/8" OD x 1-1/2" tall "pipe" sticking up near the front of the cover.

Everybody: Do you guys think I should leave the PCV valve where it is? Why would Ford go through putting it on the valve cover if they already had a spot on the block - that they then had to plug? Maybe it didn't work well there?

So maybe I should follow Ford's fix - drill a hole in the valve cover and put a new PCV valve there. Are there baffles at the valve cover openings that have the PCV valve there? Mine doesn't have any, of course. Even if I leave it at the draft tube opening, perhaps I should replace it anyway because it is seriously jammed in there. I can't pull it out with my bare hands and maybe it's jammed open from the PO hammering it in?? If so, could a jammed open PCV valve be the source of oil fouling my plugs?

and if it did run, it shake all over, and it wouldn't have any vacuum. I would put a vacuum gauge on it. Good luck
Ron: Well, the shaking is sure happening since #6 isn't firing. The only part of this I can answer for sure is the vacuum. I was seeing over 20" at idle a few months ago. Looks like I need to reset valve lash and then button it up before I can get a new vacuum reading...and, hopefully, #6 will start hitting.

 

[TrickSix]

Yes, the PCV equipped valve covers are baffled. Maybe you can scrounge a slightly newer one set up that way already. Millions were made... Since the prior owner of your car had a penchant for ah, "creative" solutions to problems, I'd be looking into confirming exactly what parts are installed in that engine. The rocker adjuster screws being all the way in might be a tell for something being very wrong. You've got an early hydraulic lifter block with a solid lifter rocker assembly. Some people do that to make up for milling a newer head for compression. But maybe it's a sign of confusion, '64 was a transitional year and parts could get mixed up. I don't know what's possible to fit and still run even if roughly. Maybe none of these scenarios are even possible. But what happens if you mix up solid and hydraulic lifters and camshafts? Is there a combination that leaves the pushrod a little down in the hole and needing all of the adjuster screw to make up for it?

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, you can swap the 5 and 6 plug wires and see if problem is still on 6. Usually a dead cylinder does not cause shaking. If you have a dead cylinder nothing changes when you pull a plug wire with the engine running. When you pull a plug wire from a good cylinder the engine will shake, and go back to running smooth when you put the plug wire back on. That is the simple check for a miss test. Good luck.

 

[Frank]

Hi, you can swap the 5 and 6 plug wires and see if problem is still on 6. Usually a dead cylinder does not cause shaking. If you have a dead cylinder nothing changes when you pull a plug wire with the engine running. When you pull a plug wire from a good cylinder the engine will shake, and go back to running smooth when you put the plug wire back on. That is the simple check for a miss test. Good luck.

Yes- had not thought of that . Fuzzy Driver, check your firing order at the distributor. Elementary, but sometimes those are the very issues which trip me up.

There is no valid reason to move the PCV valve from the block, provided it's not sucking liquid oil there and you have a vented oil cap. ALL heavy duty diesels vent the crankcase from the block. It's more logical to draw from there- the vapor being removed originates down there. Pulling from the valve cover, the mild positive pressure of the blow by works against oil draining back through the small exits from the top of the head, since it has to rise thru those same holes to get to the valve cover. Cooling blow by vapor that has to travel to the valve cover increases condensation up there too when the parts are cold, it contains a good % of water vapor. I've never seen a gummy/sludgy inside of a valve cover that pulled blow by from the block. Valve cover crankcase venting works, but drawing from the block is much more logical and keeps worn engines cleaner internally.

 

[FuzzyDriver]

Frank: WRT firing order, I've checked that obvious SNAFU several times. Not that I can check right now since I pulled the cap and wires off when I did the compression checks and I was hoping to get some advice on which valve lash procedure I should do before putting it all back together and starting it. I guess I'll TDC each cylinder to make sure both valves are closed and adjust lash there to 1/2 turn tighter than touching, unless you guys have better advice.

I'll also leave the PCV where it's at, per your advice. ...and thanks for the engine vent information.

If you have a dead cylinder nothing changes when you pull a plug wire with the engine running.
Ron: ??Not sure where you are going with that. Pulling the plug wire while the engine was running was how I originally identified that #6 cylinder was dead.

 

[Frank]

Frank: WRT firing order, I've checked that obvious SNAFU several times. Not that I can check right now since I pulled the cap and wires off when I did the compression checks and I was hoping to get some advice on which valve lash procedure I should do before putting it all back together and starting it. I guess I'll TDC each cylinder to make sure both valves are closed and adjust lash there to 1/2 turn tighter than touching, unless you guys have better advice.

I'll also leave the PCV where it's at, per your advice. ...and thanks for the engine vent information.

If you have a dead cylinder nothing changes when you pull a plug wire with the engine running.
Ron: ??Not sure where you are going with that. Pulling the plug wire while the engine was running was how I originally identified that #6 cylinder was dead.

Sorry, the valve lash keeps getting overlooked. It needs to be determined if you have hydraulic lifters, if so the procedure above is a good one. Per B ron co on post #19- see if the lifters can be forced down in their seat. Based on the current position of the adjusters, it seems likely they're hydraulic. All 12 valves can be adjusted with one full turn of the crank. It's simpler than accurately finding TDC for each cylinder- either way works: Method 1) TDC compression stroke, both valves, one cylinder at the time. Method 2) TDC compression stroke #1. Adjust #1: I&E, #2: intake, #3 exhaust. #4 intake, #5 exhaust. Now rotate the engine clockwise one full turn to TDC #6 . Adjust #2 exhaust. #3 intake. #4 exhaust. #5 intake. #6 I&E.
I find twisting the pushrod with fingers is a good way to find 0-lash. Once 0 lash is sure, add 1/2 turn to the adjuster and lock.

 

[FuzzyDriver]

Frank: I performed Method #2. Several of the lifters were very tight, but some didn't change much during the lash adjust. Engine is all buttoned up now.

Shop is 68º. I adjusted the thermostat using your procedure so it was barely & loosely shut, then shot the thermostat with my heat gun on 300º. Took a while for the heat to get inside to the bimetallic coil, but eventually the choke opened. I'll wait for daylight tomorrow and push it out of the shop before I start it with all that SeaFoam in it. They say it will smoke a lot until it burns off & I don't need that inside. Let's hope all this work will give me a good running engine.

 

[FuzzyDriver]

OK! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you all! I pushed her out of the shop, hit the starter, and it started instantly. Drove it about 30 miles. Made several stops. I never expected that 200-6 to run so smoothly. After each restart there was no way to be sure it had a starter - it popped into life so instantly I never heard it.

Extra info:
¤ Frank's valve lash #2 method is the one to use, as long as you're careful to do the right valves at #1 and #6 TDC. Switcheroo from IE to EI between #3 and #4 can bite you.
¤ Definitely has more power now.
¤ The PCV valve passed the shake test, but I soaked it in Gumout overnight anyway and blew it out before reinstalling it.
¤ Ticking sound from #6 end at first, disappeared after a few miles (SeaFoam? Valve lash?). Stayed gone.

Happy Thanksgiving!