Duraspark wiring wizards (with GM module) - Help please...!

[salty_monk]

All wired up, got it started & timing set to 10*Btdc.

Then I came to switch it off... problem... it doesn't switch off on the ignition switch! I pulled the fuse on the relay (connecting main battery power to the module & coil) & off it goes...

So out comes the meter... Anyway, the relay is working fine but by pulling the case on it I can see that it's stilled switched when turning the ignition off, get the meter in the back of it to the "trigger wire" & I can see it's still receiving voltage when the engine is running (maybe a couple less volts or maybe just bad connection with the meter).

Any ideas? Here's a pic of the install you can see the relay is open so I could see the contacts. The green is the switching wire. It is connected directly to the wire that used to run the +12v on the old coil supply the point coil. I haven't changed anything there (except lengthened it a little).



I tried Jamyers deal with the Solenoid (remove the wire from the I terminal to stop any chance of it "feeding back") by first pulling one then the other. The I & S is exactly like his diag in my other post but it doesn't make any difference if I remove the I terminal from the solenoid, same thing happens, it still doesn't stop.

The module is also running very hot (hot enough that the heat sink would sizzle if you licked your finger & applied it to the top after about 10 mins running. That doesn't seem normal to me....

Here's the link to my previous post for Reference http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53715

Help!! Confused

Thanks,

Dan

 

[addo]

So it hasn't started and run yet?

If that's so, I suspect the module is fried...

 

[salty_monk]

Starts & runs fine (at least in the driveway, I haven't driven it yet) I just can't stop it with the key!

In that tubing that the green wire disappears inside are also a wire that goes to a switch for the washer bottle pump, the wire from the alternator to the light on the dash (works fine) & one other fused live that I am going to run to a cigarette lighter socket on the dash (currently blocked off).
There's no way I have a "leak" in there to the switching wire but I just thought I'd mention it.

By the way, once I have pulled the fuse & stopped the engine the relay then works 100% as it should (if I turn ignition to "on" it triggers & then "off" it releases, this problem only occurs once the engine is running!

Dan

 

[addo]

Sounds like it's latching. In other words, once it turns on, locks in the power supply. Not good if you want to kill the engine for any reason!

 

[salty_monk]

That's exactly what it's doing but it's not the relay.... the relay is still getting a supply to it's switching wire, I just don't know where from

 

[salty_monk]

Just a thought.... I don't have twin 87 outputs on that relay so to get power to the coil & the module I have run the 87 output direct to Coil + & then put a linking wire to the module... could that be causing any problems?

That's the only thing I can see that's different to the wiring diag as shown (other than I have a fuse in the main line from battery).

Dan :roll:

 

[addo]

I am wondering if the ignition switch itself is defective. Either that, or there is an unknown splice in the switched feed wire, or the relay contacts have fused shut. Amperage rating was "continuous" - correct?

 

[salty_monk]

No idea how to test the amperage in this context..... maybe you can advise?

The wire used for relay trigger is the old one that used to power the +12v on the old coil, I soldered to it directly. It goes into the loom at the firewall so I think it's original but my manual doesn't give me a decent wiring diag to make sure. (aha... here's one, it is original http://www.wiring-wizard.com/Diagrams/wiring.gif )

The relay isn't fused shut because I can see it releases as soon as I pull the fuse & switch the engine off.

It should be noted that I didn't have this problem with the old ignition (using the same switch & that trigger wire) so no changes there so must be something I have introduced.

 

[addo]

Could it be a self-energising relay made for use with a momentary contact switch? That now seems most likely to me.

 

[salty_monk]

No, I'm using the exact same relay to power the ignition (power to the coils) in my motorbike & another one on the fan in the falcon that also works fine exactly as you'd expect....

If it's the relay it's because it's faulty, I will swap in another one tomorrow but I don't think it's that.

 

[mustang6]

Does the relay latch (get stuck) if the engine isn't even started? In other words, turn the key on (don't turn it far enough to start), then turn it off, does it latch?

I can't see anything wrong in your wiring but there's something nagging at me here. Sometimes when people on this board have wired relays into their ignition they run into a problem because there are two "live" positions on the ignition switch- "start" and "run". Many people have an issue when wiring the relay to the "run" position alone- causing the vehicle not to fire while the key is turned to "start". They forget the single wire that normally goes to the coil is energized by two wires in the ignition. I've seen people mess with the wiring to try and solve this when using the relay and sometimes they bridge the two via the "I" solenoid wire while it's also connected to other things and then end up with weird problems. There aren't any other wires connected to the "I" terminal on the solenoid are there? If not I would first try just unplugging the wire from the "I" terminal and seeing if the behavior stays the same.

If your relay does latch when you try the test above and removing the wire from the "I" terminal doesn't help, I would unhook the ignition switch from post #86. Disconnect the wires from the "I" and "S" posts on your solenoid too. Then temporarily place a wire directly from the battery to post #86 (energizing the ignition through the relay). Then start the car by jumping across the solenoid (either manually or by using a small wire direct from the battery to the "s" terminal on the solenoid for a few seconds until started. When the engine is running, disconnect the wire from the battery to post #86. If the engine dies then the relay is OK, the problem is in the wiring or switch. Further troubleshooting could isolate which one. If it doesn't die, that relay is malfunctioning.

 

[Lazy JW]

.... They forget the single wire that normally goes to the coil is energized by two wires in the ignition. I've seen people mess with the wiring to try and solve this when using the relay and sometimes they bridge the two via the "I" solenoid wire while it's also connected to other things and then end up with weird problems. There aren't any other wires connected to the "I" terminal on the solenoid are there? If not I would first try just unplugging the wire from the "I" terminal and seeing if the behavior stays the same.....

That's exactly what I was thinking.
Joe

 

[salty_monk]

Does the relay latch (get stuck) if the engine isn't even started? In other words, turn the key on (don't turn it far enough to start), then turn it off, does it latch?

I can't see anything wrong in your wiring but there's something nagging at me here. Sometimes when people on this board have wired relays into their ignition they run into a problem because there are two "live" positions on the ignition switch- "start" and "run". Many people have an issue when wiring the relay to the "run" position alone- causing the vehicle not to fire while the key is turned to "start". They forget the single wire that normally goes to the coil is energized by two wires in the ignition. I've seen people mess with the wiring to try and solve this when using the relay and sometimes they bridge the two via the "I" solenoid wire while it's also connected to other things and then end up with weird problems. There aren't any other wires connected to the "I" terminal on the solenoid are there? If not I would first try just unplugging the wire from the "I" terminal and seeing if the behavior stays the same.

First off thanks for the help.

The relay works fine when the engine is not running (i.e. moving ignition switch between on/off but not starting the engine).

I removed everything from the I post & it makes no difference.

When the engine is "running on" with the ignition in the off position I can see (when it's dark) that the Gen light is glowing (pulsing) faintly.

I have an alternator conversion. The standard yellow/black feeds for the regulator are disabled both ends & new wiring inserted.

I need to investigate more but I was wondering if the wire for the Gen light from alternator is feeding back into the ignition system via the light?

My alternator has one wire to solenoid, 1 linking two terminals & then a third wire from one of those terminals to the Gen light.

I might try disconnecting the Gen light wire today to see if that cures it. If it does then I'll have to work out how to re-wire from there....

Thanks again,

Dan

 

[jamyers]

If it is the gen light, you might try adding a diode like the MSD guys do.

 

[salty_monk]

This is where I got the idea of Gen light from another forum:

in looking at the wiring schematic from the '60-'63 Falcons, the red-green wire is connected to the pink wire resistence wire inside the car, but is brown outside the firewall, then runs to the ign.solenoid. Also, the red-
green wire is joined with the black-green wire at the ign.switch, and that wire is power to one side of the gen.light. Possibly
when the car is running, the gen. voltage (yellow-black wire) to the gen.light could be back-feeding throught the bulb to the
black-green wire back to the ign.switch where it joins the red-green wire.

I just tested it both with & without the I terminal on the solenoid connected it works fine as soon as I pull the idiot light connection from the back of the alternator. At least now I know the cause, I now just need to find a solution so I can have a light & a working car!!

A diode would seem to be a good solution (as I understand it a diode lets current pass one way but not the other right?)

What Value Diode do I need & where do I wire it (and in which direction..)?

Thanks again,

Dan

 

[jamyers]

Yup, a diode is a "one-way valve" for electricity.
If I recall, MSD apps use something like a 100V / 1A diode. I got mine from Radio Shack for a buck or something like that.

Poke around the MSD site and you'll find details on where and which way to install it. This may be it. http://www.msdignition.com/page.aspx?id=3296

 

[salty_monk]

That's it, thanks. Seems to suggest to put it direct in the line to the charging light.

Dan

 

[mustang6]

Glad you figured that out! Another electrical gremlin caught!

 

[salty_monk]

These should be Radioshack codes for suitable diodes.


1 A, 1N4003, 276-1102 - $.99
3 A, 1N5402, 276-1143 - $1.59
6 A, 276-1601 - $2.49

Seems for best protection it should be placed as close to the light itself as possible.

Any further thoughts on removing the brown wire from "I" terminal on Solenoid? Do I have to blank it off or can I connect directly to my fan relay trigger wire & still use it to run that?

 

[jamyers]

Yay! Glad you got it sorted out.

I'm still not sure how you could use the "I" terminal for much of anything, it should only be hot while the starter is spinning (from everything I've seen).