Peeledpeas
Active member
Ok, thanks for all the info. I'm now reasonably certain that this Black Box will solve my problems and, it's cheaper than the Holley setup and way cheaper than that HEI setup.
All Small Six Early 200 distributor confusion
- Thread starter Peeledpeas
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
Re the cb black box. I have one sitting here... For a few years now..., Anyways, the instructions say to set the dist at 70deg before tdc, so the electronics can do its timing magic.
I assumed thats for a 4cyl, so emailed them and he came back with for a six cyl set at 15 deg btdc.
Wonder if that was a typo and should be 45 deg?
Anyone done one on a 6cyl.
I guess a way is to verify your 10btdc mark on pulley , set the spark table to 10 deg for all revs , then get engine going and fiddle with dist till it give 10 deg on the pulley marks and tighten it up.
Then do what you want with the spark table.
I assumed thats for a 4cyl, so emailed them and he came back with for a six cyl set at 15 deg btdc.
Wonder if that was a typo and should be 45 deg?
Anyone done one on a 6cyl.
I guess a way is to verify your 10btdc mark on pulley , set the spark table to 10 deg for all revs , then get engine going and fiddle with dist till it give 10 deg on the pulley marks and tighten it up.
Then do what you want with the spark table.
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Peeledpeas
Active member
I can't figure out in my brain how these things work.
You set up the timing point of the locked out distributer. Which is ahead of where you need it.
The black box calculates from that known position. And then sends the 'signal' to the coil a microsecond later that corresponds to the correct spark timing for the rpm.
The black box calculates from that known position. And then sends the 'signal' to the coil a microsecond later that corresponds to the correct spark timing for the rpm.
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Peeledpeas
Active member
Curious if there are other products out there that do the same thing? Like this MSD box?
www.summitracing.com
MSD Ignition 5520 MSD Street Fire CD Ignitions | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - MSD Street Fire CD Ignitions with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Ignition Boxes at Summit Racing.
1) learn components ofa ign system,
2) learn what each component duz,
3) same re each up grade component (function, Y an 'upgrade'),
4) where do these get wired into my system.
I think U will find a DSII system (full oe) has alot of advantages (even w/the sniper). U may need spec developments due to pre '65 block and specific mods U seek tho. Still, 1st step is research (& understanding). Looks like U R well on the rd to that. Last step is applying this to ur application (DD? 2nd car, 1x mo joy ride, etc - would U spend 1K$ on it if used less than 500 mi a yr? more than 1K a season, etc).
Peeledpeas
Active member
I'd love to just drop in a ds2 but I don't really want to swap out my oil pump. I don't mind spending 1500 on a system if it will be reliable and not as vulnerable to environmental factors. I would likely drive it a lot more too if I wasn't worried about vapor lock, heat soak, and other nonsense that comes with antique carbs and ignition. I want turn key and go like a newer car.
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I'd say drive the pump w/a right sized shaft, right sized dizzy (end/gear) but what do I know? Not much.
But U need to understand all U can. Whenever modin out side of OE - one must become a bit ofan ex - spirt.
(an ex is a has been, a spirt - water under pressure).
"...like a newer car..."
I will not say 'then get one' but the sniper can help. Knowledge & $ is needed 4 this goal.
I've been drivin a points condenser YF for 38 yrs w/o difficulty.
Lotsa time, no $ is what U C in my sig, (incomplete too). Its revival to retire w/a 20something daughter; change from woods work/DD to 80% on rd / 20% or less off rd...
But U need to understand all U can. Whenever modin out side of OE - one must become a bit ofan ex - spirt.
(an ex is a has been, a spirt - water under pressure).
"...like a newer car..."
I will not say 'then get one' but the sniper can help. Knowledge & $ is needed 4 this goal.
I've been drivin a points condenser YF for 38 yrs w/o difficulty.
Lotsa time, no $ is what U C in my sig, (incomplete too). Its revival to retire w/a 20something daughter; change from woods work/DD to 80% on rd / 20% or less off rd...
Peeledpeas
Active member
I have to replace the LOM or modify it to run the Sniper. And I really want to run the Sniper.
Modify it and run the Sniper.
The other option is get a later engine with a VI head & then you will have the best of the best.
Any way you go you will have to pull out your wallet.
Peeledpeas
Active member
You really aren't making any sense to me. You keep telling me to learn and do research but picking the brains on this forum IS research. I think you are over-thinking this. I'm not getting into some elaborate build here. I only want a reliable cruiser with the motor I have. That's where I want to go with the rig. I have the money to do what I want with it. I am simply trying to figure out the best way to do that, for me.
Peeledpeas
Active member
I'm not worried about my wallet. I have $1500 to spend on this upgrade and I'm willing to use every penny of it to get what I want.
$1500.00 is only the tip of the iceberg. Go with your Sniper with your Loadamatic locked out & you will be ok. Nuff said, this topic has reached its limit, time to move on.
"...aren't making any sense..."
just hit the delete then, sorry~
"...Looks like U R well on the rd to that...." yup
'...picking the brains on this forum IS research..." yup
also: https://fordsix.com/ci/Tech.html
just hit the delete then, sorry~
"...Looks like U R well on the rd to that...." yup
'...picking the brains on this forum IS research..." yup
also: https://fordsix.com/ci/Tech.html
Curious if there are other products out there that do the same thing? Like this MSD box?
MSD Ignition 5520 MSD Street Fire CD Ignitions | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - MSD Street Fire CD Ignitions with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Ignition Boxes at Summit Racing.
Hi Peeledpeas, To answer you question the MSD box isn't the same thing it dosent have any capability to be programed for a timing curve like the CBP Black Box that I linked for you. At this time I don't know of any other box made with those kind of features like the Black Box. This is why I suggested it for your Unique Needs of not wanting to do any machining to the blocks distribtor hole, to a DS II distributor shaft, using the Austrailian Bosch Distribitor, or changing out the oil pump. I understand compleatly what you are trying to accomplish with using your early 200 six block and going with the Sniper 1100. I would like to see it all happen, if you were near my shop I might even be persuaded to do the work of the install.
The MSD Digital is a capitative discharge box to give a higher energy spark as well as multi Sparks to the plugs it could be used stand alone with your stock LOD as the trigger for the MSD if you wanted however as soon as you don't have the stock carb with its SCV you won't have any timing advance system. Or you could use both of them togeather using the CBP Black Box for the ignition timing curve.
Since none of my above suggestions were able to meet your set goal that really only leaves you with using one of the DUI distributors or maybe this newer one that I linked below, it is from a post I made last year. Progression Ignition makes a lot of different distributor models for our Small & Big Block Ford Six'es that are programmable by a smart phone. However the link to those Ford Distributors isn't working for some reason right now so you would need to call them to see if they make a 1/4 drive distributor or if they would make you one. After that I am about out of any other working ideas except for a waste spark system EDIS6 with Mega Jolt, but that again would require changing out the oil pump to a 5/16 inch drive one. Best of luck in the hunt.
I discovered this company by chance so though I would pass on the info to those needing a performance type distributor. Now there is a new solution that's totally digital so no more mechanical advance parts to wear out or adjust. This unit is programed by using your smart phone, I Pad, ect. They are a little more cost upfront than the base price of the D.U.I. that is before you start working on fixing its flaws. Check out their small and large cap versions of Progression Ignition distributors that is loaded with great features and fit our Ford Small and Big Block Six engines, (and most other engines that had a distributor type ignition too) in the end it is likely to be less money and time for a much better ignistion system. Enjoy
Progression Ignition
https://progressionignition.com
Listings for a Ford Engines Including Our Small and Big Six's
https://progressionignition.com/shop/ol ... istributor
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Alastairq
Active member
The Progression distributor looks an awful lot like the item I purchased as the cheapest option given what I had with my 200-6? I live in the UK, where inline sixes are not to be found in every ditch or hedgerow [don't know how lucky you lot are?]. Heck, I cannot even get Vintage Inlines stuff very easily either!! [ UK Taxes, customs duties, exorbitant delivery costs...] . All I needed, like the OP, was a decent running 6 pot in my '67 cheapoh Mustang Coupe! When I got it [it looked pretty, was pretty 'sound' metal-wise ]....it ran like a V8, in other words, like a bag of nails. But it had already received the 'sensible' daily driver mods [disc brakes of some sort, better wheel/tyre combination, Shelby droop, etc] So, seeing as I had to hide a small pension pot [and I mean, small].....I got it. Could have been worse, I could have got a rubber bumper MGB GT? Or a new Dacia Sandero?
Anyway. I digress...the engine came with the [LOD, is that Loadamatic?] LOD dizzy, but with a replacement single choke carb, which is essentially unmarked and apparently could be purchased at any Walmart? Looks like the Holley replacement, or a copy or somesuch] Anyway, it did not have the spark control valve. SO the carb & dizzy were the classic mismatch that plagues these engines. Static timing was st at about 30 degrees [I made my own form of degree markers]...The thing ran, had a high tickover, but it ran. I priced up a replacement carb [from the USA], and/or a replacement distributor [from the USA] as a start. Given I am a pensioneer living off around $1500 a month, with a rent of close to $800 a month, I hadn't got ooodles of spare income lying around doing nowt. But I had space to work on it, and tools.....almost. Anyway, that's the background I live under,. I found, on ebay a spares dealer who sold distributors put together [made?] by Total Control Systems...They are HEI [?} and the smaller profile equivalents that need a separate coil. The smaller sized dizzies were on an offer, around $99 plus delivery [to the UK, about the same again?}...which was one heck of a sight cheaper than the cheapest refurbed, Spark Control equipped, single hole carbs I could find on the net from the USA! These panned out at around $500 delivered!! My existing dizzy was fine, worked as it should, ie no discernible wear. So, the TCS dizzy was a no-brainer as far as I was concerned. It arrived in 4 days from ordering [RockAuto does the same for me too], was easily fitted once I'd got the springs sorted to suit a lightweight car, rather than a heavyweight Bronco.....and I got a 0.7 ohm coil that allowed me to widen the plug gaps bug enough to pass a double decker bus! Engine runs well now [even if I had to get a water pump from RockAuto, the old one had lost a blade and rattled]. I'm rather stuck with the curve it comes with [choices of springs, I use one medium, one light]....but it works fine and keeps ahead of modern traffic easily. I was looking for better efficiency, maybe better fuel consumption too? {Fuel here currently around $1.84 a litre, 95 octane, 5% ethanol..]. Luckily for me, RockAuto prices and cheap FedEx delivery contracts mean the old MUzzie with its 6 pot is cheaper to maintain that any modern UK Ford or Hyundry. Just got some disc pads [after I had researched and discovered what conversion kit had been used 10 or so years ago, and what that company used for its components? Turned out to be GM brakes!!], £30, delivered with taxes paid, and arrived 3 days after ordering..[ordered on June 1st, arrived June 4th]...That's $42 in your pennies! As an example, the pads for my 02 suzuki GV runabout, 2 lighter petrol, more power than the Ford 200-6!! Just!]...are around 50 quid from a big parts spot..that's over $70! Anyway, digression and a dull weather day today means I've rambled on....but, what are the sage views on the TCS items? Are they from the same sweatshop as the Progression items?
Anyway. I digress...the engine came with the [LOD, is that Loadamatic?] LOD dizzy, but with a replacement single choke carb, which is essentially unmarked and apparently could be purchased at any Walmart? Looks like the Holley replacement, or a copy or somesuch] Anyway, it did not have the spark control valve. SO the carb & dizzy were the classic mismatch that plagues these engines. Static timing was st at about 30 degrees [I made my own form of degree markers]...The thing ran, had a high tickover, but it ran. I priced up a replacement carb [from the USA], and/or a replacement distributor [from the USA] as a start. Given I am a pensioneer living off around $1500 a month, with a rent of close to $800 a month, I hadn't got ooodles of spare income lying around doing nowt. But I had space to work on it, and tools.....almost. Anyway, that's the background I live under,. I found, on ebay a spares dealer who sold distributors put together [made?] by Total Control Systems...They are HEI [?} and the smaller profile equivalents that need a separate coil. The smaller sized dizzies were on an offer, around $99 plus delivery [to the UK, about the same again?}...which was one heck of a sight cheaper than the cheapest refurbed, Spark Control equipped, single hole carbs I could find on the net from the USA! These panned out at around $500 delivered!! My existing dizzy was fine, worked as it should, ie no discernible wear. So, the TCS dizzy was a no-brainer as far as I was concerned. It arrived in 4 days from ordering [RockAuto does the same for me too], was easily fitted once I'd got the springs sorted to suit a lightweight car, rather than a heavyweight Bronco.....and I got a 0.7 ohm coil that allowed me to widen the plug gaps bug enough to pass a double decker bus! Engine runs well now [even if I had to get a water pump from RockAuto, the old one had lost a blade and rattled]. I'm rather stuck with the curve it comes with [choices of springs, I use one medium, one light]....but it works fine and keeps ahead of modern traffic easily. I was looking for better efficiency, maybe better fuel consumption too? {Fuel here currently around $1.84 a litre, 95 octane, 5% ethanol..]. Luckily for me, RockAuto prices and cheap FedEx delivery contracts mean the old MUzzie with its 6 pot is cheaper to maintain that any modern UK Ford or Hyundry. Just got some disc pads [after I had researched and discovered what conversion kit had been used 10 or so years ago, and what that company used for its components? Turned out to be GM brakes!!], £30, delivered with taxes paid, and arrived 3 days after ordering..[ordered on June 1st, arrived June 4th]...That's $42 in your pennies! As an example, the pads for my 02 suzuki GV runabout, 2 lighter petrol, more power than the Ford 200-6!! Just!]...are around 50 quid from a big parts spot..that's over $70! Anyway, digression and a dull weather day today means I've rambled on....but, what are the sage views on the TCS items? Are they from the same sweatshop as the Progression items?
I don't understand why all the complicated replies so someone please correct me if I'm missing something.
Peeledpeas wants to use the Holley Sniper 1100 which has it's own integrated ignition timing control.
All that is needed is a fixed timing signal from a Hall Effect sensor.
The LOM distributor that is already on the engine is fixed by simply removing the vacuum line to the vacuum canister.
You can also replace one of the springs with a plate that has holes for the two spring post and remove the canister.
After that the points can be replaced with the Pertronix 1266 unit for a solid signal for the Sniper 1100 which will trigger any ignition system you want.
Then you program the Sniper for the proper ignition timing.
Peeledpeas wants to use the Holley Sniper 1100 which has it's own integrated ignition timing control.
All that is needed is a fixed timing signal from a Hall Effect sensor.
The LOM distributor that is already on the engine is fixed by simply removing the vacuum line to the vacuum canister.
You can also replace one of the springs with a plate that has holes for the two spring post and remove the canister.
After that the points can be replaced with the Pertronix 1266 unit for a solid signal for the Sniper 1100 which will trigger any ignition system you want.
Then you program the Sniper for the proper ignition timing.
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Peeledpeas
Active member
What pmuller said. Ideally I would want to put the Holley Hyper-spark distributor in there. Designed for and plugs right in to the Sniper but as far as I can tell it won't fit even though they advertise that it fits all Ford 6's 1960 and newer. Don't know if that's an error on their part or if they include something in the box that adapts it to older engines.
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