Texas46Ford
New member
After seeing this, it appears that the heads I have located are actually hso heads, not hsc. Problem, or go with them?
Ford 250 I6 question(s)
- Thread starter Texas46Ford
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After seeing this, it appears that the heads I have located are actually hso heads, not hsc. Problem, or go with them?
'68falconohio
Well-known member
What about the valve order on the HSC? If it alternates exhaust-intake-exhaust-intake even when you weld your heads together you're going to have a problem with making up the intake-exhaust-exhaust-intake for the #3 and #4 cylinders of the small six. That is, unless you used an aussie cam meant for a cross flow engine, right?
Texas46Ford
New member
I'm not sure on that one, but the article said the ports were siamesed, so I would think the valves would be as follows; int-exh-exh-int, otherwise they couldn't share a port. What concerns me is that the article states the hsc heads are iron and the heads I found are aluminum; also, the intakes and V/C's on the heads I found resemble the hso heads.
The 2.3L Tempo head may have more similarities with the Aussie 250 2V than the Crossflow. The 2.3L, 250 2V, and our log head all have siamesed intake and the exhaust ports, they are located on the same side of the head; the Crossflow head has the intake and exhaust on opposite sides of the head (thus the designation crossflow). This difference accounts for the reason that the crossflow cam has to be used when the head is adapted to our 6Cyl block.
The best thing to do is place a 6Cyl head next to the 2.3L head and see if the intake and exhaust valves are in the same position. If they are, then you should be able to use a standard 6Cyl cam to operate the valves in the joined 2.3L heads.
Texas46Ford, I'd say go with the HSO heads. The website stated that they have better breathing than the cast iron HSC heads; plus the aluminum would be easier to weld
The best thing to do is place a 6Cyl head next to the 2.3L head and see if the intake and exhaust valves are in the same position. If they are, then you should be able to use a standard 6Cyl cam to operate the valves in the joined 2.3L heads.
Texas46Ford, I'd say go with the HSO heads. The website stated that they have better breathing than the cast iron HSC heads; plus the aluminum would be easier to weld
Texas46Ford
New member
Agreed. Since the 2.3 is based on the 200-250 it would stand to reason that the valve arrangement would be similar as well. For certain, the timing covers and balancers are the same (more comparisons at the local parts counter along with visual inspections of the parts in question) on both engines as are the distributor mounts; with all this interchangeability it seems to follow that they would have kept everything else they could the same, less reengineering.
A good point as it brings up another important issue; to be sure the proper cylinder is in the proper place when lining everything up for welding. If the 6cyl is I-E-E-I-I-E-E-I-I-E-E-I and the 4cyl is I-E-E-I-I-E-E-I, cylinders 1-3 will match on both engines, but 2-4 must be used over 4-6 to maintain correct valve sequencing.
Again, agreed and the shrinkage rate is easier to calculate with aluminum as it is more consistant than cast iron (not to mention the alignment jig that would have to be engineered for the furnace brazing of the cast iron).
WOW, I'm subscribing to this intense amount of knowledge... maybe i'll learn something?
Keep up the work! and Good Luck!
Keep up the work! and Good Luck!
'68falconohio
Well-known member
I took a look at my project head, the valve order of the US small ford six is:
..1....2....3....4.....5....6
E-I..I-E..I-E..E-I..E-I..I-E
I think the Aussie X-flow order is
please double check this, I'm basing it off pics found around the forum and could be wrong)
..1.....2....3.....4....5....6
.I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E
Anyone know the valve order of the HSC or HSO engine?
..1....2....3....4.....5....6
E-I..I-E..I-E..E-I..E-I..I-E
I think the Aussie X-flow order is
please double check this, I'm basing it off pics found around the forum and could be wrong)..1.....2....3.....4....5....6
.I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E
Anyone know the valve order of the HSC or HSO engine?
early ford fan
Well-known member
i wonder if this head design may have been a better choise for the aluminum heads.im sure ford spent major bucks getting them perfect.wallaka":17i0w8m7 said:
Not enought aftermarket parts available i think. That's the great thing about the AL head, broad spectrum of available parts.
Texas46Ford
New member
The hsc and hso heads are the same valve order as the 200-250; E-I-I-E-E-I-I-E (I actually just looked at the heads a little while ago).I took a look at my project head, the valve order of the US small ford six is:
..1....2....3....4.....5....6
E-I..I-E..I-E..E-I..E-I..I-E
I think the Aussie X-flow order is
..1.....2....3.....4....5....6
.I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E
Anyone know the valve order of the HSC or HSO engine?
'68falconohio
Well-known member
Texas46Ford":161yxspd said:The hsc and hso heads are the same valve order as the 200-250; E-I-I-E-E-I-I-E (I actually just looked at the heads a little while ago).I took a look at my project head, the valve order of the US small ford six is:
..1....2....3....4.....5....6
E-I..I-E..I-E..E-I..E-I..I-E
I think the Aussie X-flow order is
..1.....2....3.....4....5....6
.I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E..I-E
Anyone know the valve order of the HSC or HSO engine?
So, it will take four weld joints and two heads to make up a small six head. I'm digging this project. I'm looking at it from a welding side, and how the deck side of the head is going to have to be welded. I'm wondering how thick the head is in between the combustion chambers where you would make your cuts, and how wide your bevels or root opening would have to be to make a full pen. weld? Would there be other tidbits(water jackets) in there that you would have to tie together also?
Just thinking aloud.
Texas46Ford
New member
The cut would have to jog around the head bolts between #'s 3 and 4. At this time, I plan to have them torqued to the block with a piece of 12"x1/4" plate steel between them to protect the block surface and add stability to the heads (I will check the block deck for true first). If there is enough metal available between the ports, I may remove enough from the sides and top to weld the deck side from the inside and weld it back in after that, but probably not as there isn't much space between the cylinders (refer to the head gasket pics above) and the water jackets seem to be no issue in this prticular area as long as the external welds all seal (if they don't, water leaks wil be the least of our problems; think shrapnel on fire-up). Prior to releasing the head to weld the deck surface I will bolt some 3/8" thick structural angle to the manifold face and to the V/C rail for stabiity. A thin rod laid down at a steep angle should offer good penetration with a high heat, a fast feed rate and a 60 degree bevel and minimum root spacing; this will also minimize shrinkage by limiting the HAZ on the initial pass. Just my thoughts so far. (wow! cast iron heads are looking better all the time, huh? LOL!)
Any thoughts on this?
'68falconohio
Well-known member
I was thinking about the deck side being done with a window weld like you were saying, that way you wouldn't be back purging the inside of the head and instead could put the deck on a purge block. Have you used an Ar/He mix for Aluminum before? I had to make some welds on 3/8" aluminum with a 185A machine, thank you helium. Spinach for TIG aluminum, :mrgreen:
Another thing that would make it easier if you can weld the ID of the deck side from the inside is to backgrind/weld on the OD to make sure you got full pen. I'm thinking the deck side weld is the most critical, since the other three can have weld reinforcement left if you're not too vain about appearance.
I think the 60 degrees should be good. I wonder what alloy the head is??? I've got a chart from the structural aluminum welding code with recommended filler metals for aluminum base materials. I'll try to get that from work tomorrow if you'd like it.
I hate furnace brazing, I'm getting my arse handed to me by some stainless steel braze.
Another thing that would make it easier if you can weld the ID of the deck side from the inside is to backgrind/weld on the OD to make sure you got full pen. I'm thinking the deck side weld is the most critical, since the other three can have weld reinforcement left if you're not too vain about appearance.
I think the 60 degrees should be good. I wonder what alloy the head is??? I've got a chart from the structural aluminum welding code with recommended filler metals for aluminum base materials. I'll try to get that from work tomorrow if you'd like it.
I hate furnace brazing, I'm getting my arse handed to me by some stainless steel braze.
Texas46Ford
New member
It's good to see I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. I have a "zero clearance" (yeah, right) small head torch on a liquid cooled analog syncrowave 250 that I'll be using; and 2% ceriated tungstens since you can really cook them with very little burnback or deformation. You have to really cut your tungstens down, but we do what we must. I prefer the analog dinosaurs with their crisper arc when I need the heat here and now, and being liquid cooled I can really crank on this rig and get out before the HAZ permeates the entire area. I was planning on an Ar/He blend, most likely 80/20. The purge block is a good idea, but I'm still thinking I would like it bolted in place to minimize deformity; I can always rig a purge line independently as it would be a good idea as well.
LOL! If you ever met me, you would see that I'm not vain about appearance; oh, you were refering to the welds! Again, we agree; I intend to back grind the deck side, it only makes sense and would limit the HAZ again. The other welds could be opened up a bit more and 45'd to ensure penetration without leaving an ugly scar; the manifold face needs to be smooth to limit interference with the manifolds and I was thinking on building up a dam on the top weld to assist in forced circulation for the crankcase ventilation with a matching V/C divider plate since it will be in the middle anyway.
I was planning on taking some metal from the cut-off cylinders to test fillers on. Yes, I am always interested in info like this; you can e-mail it to me if you like as it might be a bit long and boring for most post readers. No offense intended to you wonderful post readers.
LOL! Been there. Are you using the hydraulic method? If so, what kind of sacrificial strip are you using? A purer grade copper should help as it can handle the extra heat stored in the stainless versus iron or steel. Let me know how it comes out? Try brazing a damascened stainless/titanium blend if you want fun!!
'68falconohio
Well-known member
Painless as a pic, and others may want the info.
Texas46Ford":3rsoyy4r said:
Not familiar with the hydraulic method? I'm using a BNi-7 w/out flux. My 'humpback' box I made to keep the hydrogen on the part in the furnace is the REAL fun part...
Gotta get back to work, yey.
Texas46Ford
New member
Update: OK, I have the heads and intakes, but it will be a while before I can cut them and start the actual welding as I am very busy with a project at work just now. I will try getting some pics up this week for a reference point, but no promises as to when. A few more weeks and things will settle down; I hope!
Thank you '68falconohio, the chart is much appreciated and has been printed off and laminated for easy reference in the shop. How did your stainless braze come out?
Thank you '68falconohio, the chart is much appreciated and has been printed off and laminated for easy reference in the shop. How did your stainless braze come out?
'68falconohio
Well-known member
No worries on the chart.
We're farming the brazing out to the pros now, I proved the concept with my small scale 'humpback' box and hydrogen atmosphere on some samples. :mrgreen: I'm not a brazing guy (CAN'T STAND IT) so I'm happily retreating to my welding machine.
Here's a linky to tungsten selection and prep. This is something you may very well already know, but if you keep a larger included angle on the grind of your tungsten with a larger flat spot on the end you will have more penetration and a narrower puddle than a small angle and a tungsten ground to a point which gives you a wide puddle with less penetration. This stuff will help you make quicker welds and minimize the HAZ. Has to do with the arc leaving the tungsten perpendicular to the tungstens surface. A tungsten with a completely flat tip has a really focused arc.
http://www.ckworldwide.com/tech-4.pdf
Here's a linky to a thread on SpeedTalk I found about welding aluminum heads, you need a login to view the 'Advanced Engine Tech' section on the board but oh is it worth it.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lding+head
We're farming the brazing out to the pros now, I proved the concept with my small scale 'humpback' box and hydrogen atmosphere on some samples. :mrgreen: I'm not a brazing guy (CAN'T STAND IT) so I'm happily retreating to my welding machine.
Here's a linky to tungsten selection and prep. This is something you may very well already know, but if you keep a larger included angle on the grind of your tungsten with a larger flat spot on the end you will have more penetration and a narrower puddle than a small angle and a tungsten ground to a point which gives you a wide puddle with less penetration. This stuff will help you make quicker welds and minimize the HAZ. Has to do with the arc leaving the tungsten perpendicular to the tungstens surface. A tungsten with a completely flat tip has a really focused arc.
http://www.ckworldwide.com/tech-4.pdf
Here's a linky to a thread on SpeedTalk I found about welding aluminum heads, you need a login to view the 'Advanced Engine Tech' section on the board but oh is it worth it.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lding+head
RacinNdrummin
Well-known member
What are the casting numbers on the Aluminum HSC heads?
RacinNdrummin
Well-known member
And post pics of the heads if you can...
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