Help...what did I do wrong?

[CobraSix]

I thought I was all ready to fire up the engine. Everything all set. So I started to fill the radiator. All of a sudden I see coolant pooring out of the front of the engine in the vacinity of the thermostat. No big deal I thought until I notice it was leaking form the back of the engine as well. Upon closer inspection it looks to have been leaking from between the block and head.

What did I do wrong on the head installation? I assume it is something to do with the head gasket not seating right? We did the proper torque pattern in progressive amounts according to the shop manual.

So what was wrong? Any other things that may have caused it?

The only other thing I can think of is that the block is a 68 block and I used the torque specs from my 65 shop manual. ANyone have the head torque specs for 68 block?

Looks like I'll be pulling the head again and seeing what is up.
Thanks.

Slade

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Did you clean out the head bolt holes? Could there be something keeping your head bolts from bottoming? Did you install the head gasket correctly?

 

[addo]

OK, checklist time.

Chase the threads with a 7/16 UNC bottoming tap?
Ensure gasket is on correct way around, not back to front?
Test bolt head "stand up height" bottomed in hole, against head drilling thickness?
Block face is flat and true?
Grease under bolt heads when torquing?
Nothing sandwiched between block and head (like choke cable )?
Relaxation time allowed between torquings (5-20 minutes)?
Thermo housing or headers stopping head from bottoming out? (What order of assembly?)
Is head "cocked" on the block face?

Just a few things to contemplate.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, if you're supposed to do all that stuff I wonder if mine is going to leak when I fire it up? I pretty much replaced the gasket and that was it. Uh Oh.

 

[CobraSix]

Addo,

No I didn't chase the threads.

Is it possible to put the gasket on backwards?

I didn't test the bolt head height. My head has not been milled.

I didn't have the block checked. Is there anyway I can do that with the engine in the car?

I didn't grease under the bolt heads...

Nothing is sandwiched.

DIdn't know about relaxation time, wasn't mentioned in the book.

The head was put on the block first before anything else.

Cocked? Not sure what you mean?

Thanks...seems like I did a lot of things wrong.

Slade

 

[CobraSix]

ADDO:

Just looked at something. I have some gasket showing on the driverside front of the block. It has a hole in it. Does that mean I did it backwards? I hope I didn't do something that stupid

Slade

 

[Anonymous]

How about your thermostat gasket? Is coolant leaking from the backside of the housing?...ZZ

 

[lightnin-boy]

Did you have your head planed? If you did you need to use hardened washers with your headbolts, otherwise they could bottom out in the block causing false torque readings. Mustang Geezer had this happen to him.

Kirk

 

[CobraSix]

I didn't have the head milled (or the block). It was bought and I was told it was running fine prior to being pulled and replaced with a V-8. I'm going to check my bolts out tomorrow when I pull the head back off.

If they are too long, can I just cut them?

Slade

 

[StrangeRanger]

Not a good idea unless you have a lathe. You need to get the end square and you would need to recut the chamfer on the first thread. There's also the issue of thread length; on a lot of highly loaded fasteners (don't know about these) the threads are just long enough, shortening the fastener doesn't help because they still won't thread into the hole. Better to get the hardened washers, they're cheap enough.

 

[BIGREDRASA]

One last thing, if the bolts have been used too many times, they can stretch.

 

[Anonymous]

Seriously, the best thing you can do is....

Pull the head. Check the gasket first (backwards? ).
Then chase the threads. Get some Hardened washers to put under the head bolts.. they do only good no harm.

unless you pulled the head yourself off a running engine with a composite gasket and replaced it with a new version of the same gasket, you have to assume there may be a difference in height.

Installing the washers will ensure a fit, even if it is 100% stock, which means it needs a cut anyway to restore CR. unless you have a metal gasket, and you can ensure a true surface.

Once you get the washers and install again, allow even more than 20 minutes if you can for compression.... I do three stages. First one on to about 1/2. Second one about 45 minutes later to 3/4....
Next morning.... 100% Sorry, but I let it sit overnight, cannot hurt anything, and I was told this is a good idea by my machinist....

You may know all of this already, but it never hurts to mention the obvious, that always seems to be the thing I forget....

 

[Anonymous]

lucky me , after rebuild , put togheter the engine , fill the carb with gas, because after that long time it whas complete dry , the car did run direct after a couple cranks ! not good , but that was because the oil must pumping arround the hole engine ,after 10 min letting it run , and adjust the timing a bit , it runs fine ,\
but what a smell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the engine was new painted , and after heating up the first time you can smel the paint , verry good !!!!!!
so i think i,m a GOOD mechanic gone do today the dura spark upgrade , and then for the turbo setup ,!! pic wil be soon up for the turbo setup. wil pic the hole proces . thanks guys, for given me good advise.
better ask here i the forum stuf , for when not sure if you got it right ,then put togheter and dont now for sure it,s right !
i feel good this weekeind , engine running fine !!! only the clutch to do and maybe gone drive it this weekend !!!!
feeling good driving the old mustang again !

 

[addo]

Harrie, I think you know what you are doing. It takes a careful person to run a laser cut process.

Eric: You're flying on beginner's luck - right? No, just hand-me-down embedded knowledge. How many HAMB guys really have no idea? That's my point...

Slade, I wasn't trying to put you down. Hope your wife is going easy on you. Just got back from 5 hours cleaning bricks in the rain (gotta love those jobs); time to have a shot at the situation.

Obviously, the gasket has to come out, and you'll need another one. Hopefully that's the sum total of damage. Time to unhook it all again. Get a "plug" or "bottoming" tap for the threads, and use it with a smear of light oil. This will stick the crud in the tap flutes. I have 7/16 BSW, but UNC is the correct thread type. When the bolts are out, try to see if there is evidence of not enough thread - maybe silvering on the bolt lead-out or burring on the block lead-in.

Checking the block can be done with a $10 engineer's steel 12" rule. Use a 2' straightedge if you have one, but don't spend if you don't. Check along the block, across it, diagonals, just look for low spots, especially on the lifter side. I would say over 5 thou is cause for worry in your case. While you're at it, measure your deck height with feeler gauges under the rule, with a piston at TDC, and measure your timing chain slop (how many degrees movement back from TDC before rotor moves). And gauge the overbore if you have Verniers. (Now you can do your CR if you measure piston dish size/depth, too.)

Your threads should always be moly greased or engine oiled for the head. As grease is best under the heads, I use it on the threads, too. Old head bolts can break. I have a spectacular picture (if it comes out) of a near miss last week. The bolt came out 2/3 broken.

The gasket can be accidentally end-to ended. Easy way to check is the coolant holes at the front of the gasket are small and round, while the ones at the rear of the block are teardrop-like. This does sound likely here.

Setting the gasket between torquing is recommended by every man and his dog. Minimum break = 1 cup coffee or tea, each time.

By "cocking" I meant that the head was sitting up slightly one edge, and after the bolts were snug, had held that position. Unlikely. More possible is a different header flange or thermo housing projecting below the level of the head face, stopping it from making full contact. I put these parts on at 65 pounds (Stage II) head bolt setting.

Beyond that, not much I can think of right now. It'll come good. Just take it easy, methodically, and remember to look after your back with that heavy piece of iron. Stress and occupational health/safety are not good bedfellows. A friend has repeatedly injured his already bad back, trying to do repairs. Now he just passes me the tools. :roll:

I'll check in about 0900 or so (RI time), to see how things are looking.

Adam.

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

For whatever reason sounds like the old "need to put hardened washers under my head bolts because they bottomed out before clamping" trick.

Did you get your head rebuilt? Maybe they just swapped you with a similar head and it had been milled?

That is #1 reason I want to use head studs.

 

[CobraSix]

Adam,

I in no way, shape, or form, construed your remarks as an insult. I obviously messed up somewhere and you gave me some extrememly valuable feedback. Thank you very much. I'll start pulling the head this morning sometime. I figured last night after all this mess wasn't the time to start doing it because I would have been too frustrated. What a roller coaster ride...within minutes of starting...only to find out I have to try again.

Everyone, thanks for the information.

Here is my plan of action:

1) Remove the head
2) Order new head bolts
3) Order new gaskets
4) get a thread chaser
5) Purchase some hardened washers
6) Cut my old head bolts on the ends to use and head guides (didn't have any last time for aligning the gasket and head (maybe ripped the gasket).
7) Take abuse from my wife...

Oh well...

thanks again for the help. I'll be checking back in later.

Slade

 

[addo]

Good to see you've got a handle on things. My initial response was a bit brief 'cos I had to go to work. Double check that thread pitch. 14 threads per inch is UNC, 20 is UNF. Because it's going into a brittle casting, I'm guessing it's UNC. But like I said, my tap is a BSW, so it's "near enough" only :roll: . Plus it's in a mate's toolbox right now, so I can't check.

You will find with light assistance from an open-ended spanner (wrench), it'll wind in nicely. If it does bind at all, back it out a turn when you feel it starting to grab. Don't crank it right in, then snap the tap off as you wind it out. Often, all you're doing is collecting the crud from the threads, not actually reshaping.

The header gasket should be fine to re-use, and the thermo, too - unless they're stuck. You'll only need the head gasket itself - guess no more than $20 for you fellows. As for hardened washers, I don't buy the fancy pants brands unless they come as part of a kit. No-name Grade 8 (what you want) 7/16 flat washers cost equivalent of 25¢ here.

Making guide studs is good when you're running solo. Three is plenty.

Another "tip": Use assembly lube on the valve stem tips, and pushrod ends when reassembling. It'll help them bed in faster.

As to (7.) - I can only suggest three things. One you don't want to know about , another is industrial earmuffs, and the third is earplugs (discreet!)...

LOL, now you're sorted, I'll be in bed before 2300 (on a Saturday night)! Later,

Adam.

 

[CobraSix]

Is there a certain grade bolt for head bolts? In other words, do I need to special order them or can I use the Grade 8 bolts from Napa for my head bolts so long as they are the same size?

Slade

 

[Falcon62]

Slade - Addo has given you some great info, but you should be able to reuse your old head bolts as long as you put hardened washers on them first. Pick up some grade 3 bolts to cut and use for guides, a new head gasket, and go after it. The grade 3 bolts are easier to cut with a hacksaw. Another tip - use your hacksaw to cut a screwdriver slot in the top of your guide. Makes it easier to get them out after you have the head in place.

The most likely problem is the head has been shaved in the past and the bolts are now bottoming out in their respective holes (or you tore the head gasket as you mentioned). Chasing threads with a bottoming tap is a very good thing to do, but something I prefer to do with the engine on a stand so I can clean all the gunk out afterward. It's easy to rotate the engine over, squirt some brake cleaner into the hole, and blow the crud out with compressed air. This all before the enigne gets a thorough bath with hot water (hottest I can stand) and Dawn detergent.

Since you don't have the luxury of following the above process, make sure you protect all the internals with rags or shop towels to keep any metallic shavings from finding their way inside.

On your plan of action, I'd complete steps 1, 3, 4, & 5. A candle light dinner and her favorite flowers will stop #7 from becoming an issue.

(PS - The Fel-Pro head gasket in the kit I bought had "Front" printed on it. Check your new gasket to see if it has any such markings.)

 

[CobraSix]

Looks like somehow I was dumb enough to put the gasket on backwards. Here are the pictures:
Back:

Front:

I found no signs of bolts bottoming out, but I'll get some washers just to be safe.

When I CC'd the chambers, I found that the head had not been milled at all.

Slade