new cam installed, engine won't start

[dawnovsky]

Hi,
just had a new cam install this week end.
This include new head gasket, new oil pump, new timing chain and sprocket, new lifter, iginition removal and reinstall.... well in one word, lost of thing to mess up with...
one everything reinstall, engine won't start. puffing, but no start

fuel pump is working when turn engine by hand. when cranking with fuel level eyelet open, i can see fuel coming out (holley 350) so bowl is full.
got some spark yellow to blue when esting plug.
distributor (DS2) was reinstall with dumper facing 10btdc mark and distributor finger pointing to cyl1 wire.
timing mark on new sproket were facing. (positive about this, as two pair on mechanic eye were on it during installation)
engine is puffing so it sound like bad timing to me.



I have try staring with starter for aless than 2 minutes of crank so camshaft should not be destroyed yet.


any suggstion ?? double check the dizzy may be ? reisntall the dizzy from scratch?? any suggestion of a good way to proceed?

regards

 

[xctasy]

Relax.

Lifter bleed down will mean your not getting full compression yet.

I'd keep turning the engine, and get the compression readings after the first minute. Get a spare battery, and jet check that you have about 120 psi compression. It will go up on starting.

Typical dry lifter issue.

You'll have to wait after it starts for the typical dry lifter noises to abate. After that, it'll smoothen out, and you'll be able to set idle CO's and then the idle speed in park and idle.

 

[dawnovsky]

hi, thanks xtasy
I guess i should keep trying then.
How long should it take/*
How long is to long .
I have been trying a few lunch, 5 sec crank. total maybe 10 to 15 times, with no luck..

should i prime the oil pump again to speedup process ?
i don't really understand propely the 6cyl oil circuits. if i rememmber well lifter are the last lubricated (from the top)
It will be really difficult to bring them enought oil to prime correctly. May be adding a bit of oil from above will help ??

thanks

 

[Gene Fiore]

Are you sure you have the distributor in correctly? This is how I do it. Crank engine over by hand with the number one spark plug removed. When the number one piston is coming up on the compression stroke you will feel air coming out the #1 spark plug hole...you may want to put your finger by the plug opening to feel this. As you are doing this slow down on cranking the engine and stop when the timing mark on the crankshaft dampner is pointing to the zero mark on the timing tab. Then stab in the distributor making sure the rotor is pointing to the number one position ON THE DIST CAP. If you do this and you have fuel and spark it should fire. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

[vntgtrk]

Then stab in the distributor making sure the rotor is pointing to the number one position ON THE DIST CAP.

I made this mistake my first day on the job at my first mechanic job. I'd never seen a cross fire cap before opsie:

 

[dawnovsky]

hi guys,
thanks for your answer.
as old folks used ot say, "it s always the ignition"

I have double check the dizzy yesterday morning. I have noticed it was out of timing. readjust, the engine start right away.
One good night of sleep makes things easier sometime.
i would have swear the timing was about correct the day before ....

thanks any for your answer

intial break in is complete now. 20 minutes at 2500 RPM.
Not easy when it's 28 outside.
i have usedseveral electric fans in front and over the engine.
exaust manifold was glowing red in the dark ...

new oil and new filter have to be install now.

regards

 

[Gene Fiore]

Awesome!! Glad you got it going.

 

[dawnovsky]

New oil is ready,
just a few stuf to reinstall (head light and bumpers might helps with the police) and it will be good to go ...

 

[bubba22349]

Great

 

[dawnovsky]

Hi guys,

i ve got the car back in the garage.
initial break in complet.
I had a bit of a hard time to reset her to a descent idle.
I ve got it to run about 1000 rpm after playing a bit with advance ( about 14°) and mixture.
do you thing a will be able to acheive a better idle (below 1000) with that cam (clay smith 264/264 - 110) below a 250-2v head and a 350 holley.
thanks .

 

[Gene Fiore]

I think 14 deg initial advance is a bit much. I would try about 10-12 deg initial and see how it idles there. Also, if you are running vacuum advance are you using ported vacuum source or full manifold vacuum? I would suggest ported vacuum.

 

[wsa111]

First of all have you done a cranking compression test?
Every time you advance or retard the timing you are affecting the total advance.
Is your combination a stick shift or a C4. If its a C4 what kind of torque converter such as stall speed do you have.
After we know your combination we can recommend what you need as far as distributor settings.
Did you just install a reman. DS11?
Depending on your combination some times i use a short vacuum advance can & use manifold vacuum.
You need your distributor put on a sun machine to see what you have as far as centrifigal advance.
Look at the centrifigal advance part of the distributor below the plate where the pickup is and there are #'s stamped where the weights are.
Just using an example if your cranking compression is 175# i would use 10 degrees centrifigal X 2 = 20 + 16 initial = 36 degrees total advance. I would use light springs to have all the advance in by 2800 with a C4 & 2500 for a stick shift. I would use a short travel vacuum can & see wether manifold vacuum gives you the best idle or does ported.
With these settings you will probably have to use 91-93 octane.
This is just a guess not knowing your engine combinations.
On some applications i do not even use the vacuum advance.
Anyone who just installs a reman. distributor is just wasting time & getting poor performance.
You also need a handheld vacuum pump so you can set the vacuum settings on the vacuum advance using a hex-allen wrench. A rough setting is 3-6-9. Three at WOT & 9 @ full advance. Bill

 

[xctasy]

Endorse 110%. :wow: :thanks: arty: Its what I've always siad about cam choiceand acillaires, Bill says from his experience. This is David Vizard and US cam grind 20 questions, # 101

First of all have you done a cranking compression test?
Every time you advance or retard the timing you are affecting the total advance.
Is your combination a stick shift or a C4. If its a C4 what kind of torque converter such as stall speed do you have.
After we know your combination we can recommend what you need as far as distributor settings.
Did you just install a reman. DS11?
Depending on your combination some times i use a short vacuum advance can & use manifold vacuum.
You need your distributor put on a sun machine to see what you have as far as centrifigal advance.
Look at the centrifigal advance part of the distributor below the plate where the pickup is and there are #'s stamped where the weights are.
Just using an example if your cranking compression is 175# i would use 10 degrees centrifigal X 2 = 20 + 16 initial = 36 degrees total advance. I would use light springs to have all the advance in by 2800 with a C4 & 2500 for a stick shift. I would use a short travel vacuum can & see wether manifold vacuum gives you the best idle or does ported.
With these settings you will probably have to use 91-93 octane.
This is just a guess not knowing your engine combinations.
On some applications i do not even use the vacuum advance.
Anyone who just installs a reman. distributor is just wasting time & getting poor performance.
You also need a handheld vacuum pump so you can set the vacuum settings on the vacuum advance using a hex-allen wrench. A rough setting is 3-6-9. Three at WOT & 9 @ full advance. Bill

 

[dawnovsky]

hi,

thanks for answers even if there are a bit complicated for me.
to answer your question, setting is as follow
250-2v head with CI header and dsII ignition (rebuilt i guess ... with ford modul (blue)) C4 and stock converter.
I am not trying to build a race car.

i have been trying a get a nice idle today
initial advance ( vacuum (manifold) disconnected) with engine idling at about 850-900 rpm was about 14° with some shacking...
try to see how far i can go with the advance and I was really surprise to get to close to something like 35° advance with engine running perfectly. test drive it gave good response and lots of power.
from what i now it is just not possible to have such number at idle unless something is not installed properly or the damper have slide (damper is year old).
i ve just install new cam, but the design is fool proof and cannot be install incorrectly (dot facing, single key sprocket)


i just don't understand...

 

[xctasy]

Question One. With your rebuilt or stock distributor. At 14 degrees intial, what is your total advance, and at what rpm. Is it 35 degrees all in by 2800, 3000 or 3500 rpm?
Bill is saying that unless the peak advance is limited to 36 degrees at 2800 rpm with 175 psi of cold cranking combustion pressure, you might not get 14 degrees static advance at 850-900 rpm.

Question Two. What torque converter do you have? Answer. Stock 1650 rpm stall, the standard I6 Item
Question Three. What is the pounds per square inch compression while turning over your engine?

Is it 155, 160, 165, 170, 175, 180, 185, 190 or 195 in psi.

Question Four. Have you got access to a handheld vacuum pump so you can set the vacuum settings on the vacuum advance using a hex-allen wrench. A rough setting is 3-6-9i . 3 at WOT & 9 @ full advance. There is an allen key bolt you can adjust the vac advance unit with.

The advance can be changed easily if needed, but if cold cranking compression is too high, you'll have to offset the ctiming chain pully, or adjust the valve clearances manually, to reduce total camshaft, not ignition advance. In order to reduce total cam advance, you have to make sure the cam doesn't hit the conrods, and then buy an offset keyway and advance or retard the cam to timing chain alignment.

Easy to do if you know what the cold cranking pressure is.

Then, you can make that machine idle like a kitten.

 

[wsa111]

I wish you had choosen the 112 L/C camshaft over the 110 L/C
After you get your ignition squared away, if still not satisfied, get a converter with a 2200-2400 stall speed.
That will able the engine to idle in gear @ 750-850 in drive.
Best of luck to you. Bill

 

[dawnovsky]

what i ha ve done today
try to set better idle and vacuum.

when timing is set to about 12-16 , idle in kind of okay, but engine perform poorly (lack of acceleration).
I have set the timing with a vacuum gauge (35 years old from my father, so reading might not be accurate, but tendency are good) it read about 13 psi at idle( but might be wrong) with vacuum advance disconnected. can't get anything better.
with this setting, and vaccum advance reconnected to the holley350 ported vacuum port, engine performs good, give good acceleration and proper idle.
when i check with timing lamp it read about 35 to40. this is strange.

another strange thing is, with this setting, when i disconnect a vacuum port from the intake manifold, instead of running worst, the engine seems to run better.
Same thing when pull the PVC valve out of the valve cover. (PVC connected to carb base vacuum port, tranny to intake manifold, and dizzy to the ported vacuum port). if i put my finger on PVC valve, engine rpm and vacuum drop.
weird isn't it.
cam is said to be a 264/264: 110 L/C (http://www.classicinlines.com/images/ca ... 64-10.html).
will you recommend to cancel PVC valve (not good for environment and inside hood paint but better for mixture quality).

in addition, engine die in drive . it s like the C4 it killing RPM so bad the engine can 't stand it.
When hot it is a bit better but RPM still drops a lot.
It leads me to increase idle (about 1000 rpm) to be able to keep the engine runing while in drive (rpm about 500-550).
change tranny and converter oil today, as well as vacuum modulator (old one was sucking fluid) but it barely better.

i am sure you will have suggestion.

 

[xctasy]

Relax. Don't let any of this preplex you.

Although very time consuming, I assure you that most cam/cylinder head/carb packages with less than 215 degrees lift at 50 thou can be made to work with Fords anyoying 1650 rpm stall converter. Fords standard practice is to move to a so called 2350 rpm stall converter when using the Super Cobra jet hydraulic or E303 cams like on the 1969-1973 FMX Auto 351 4V HO engines, and even the stock 1984-1985 AOD HO 165 hp 5.0 Mustangs and 1988-on Super Charged 3800 T-bird used this special 2.52:1 stall converter. It is a stock solution Ford used for years on any transmission with a hotter than stock 268 degree cam or where the auto transmission is set up to jump into top first chance as the FMX and AOD most certianly do. 1650 rpm and 2350 rpm was the rating with a certain test criteria; they are quoted often in FoMoCo service manuals from 1970 to 1984.

We can adjust the idle for a stock low speed stall converter by retarding the cam timing by use of an offset keyway and/or by adjusting the rocker clearance. The exhast closing event defines how much cold cranking compression.

You need to perform four easy tasks:

This will sort your basic load at low rpm and allow the car to idle with the 264 cam.

Task 1: What is the cold cranking compression now?
Task 2: Can you confirm your inital timing , and the resulting total advance at 1000, 1200, 1400,1600,1800,2000,2200, 2400, 2600, 2800, 3000, 3200, 3400 and 3600 rpm in drive.
Task 3: You will need to drop the sump as per JackFish's photos below, and remove the timing chain cover and balancer at some stage, and recheck the cam timing. The Clay Smith 264 cam is very specialised, and in some applications outside the normal set up criteria, the cam can get close to touching the conrods of the 200 engine.
Task 4: After the 3 tasks are complete, order a set of 985 or 987G Mr Gasket Offset keyways.The degree offset depends on if you have the JP timing chain set. These offset keyways ensure you can get the exhast event right so that the car will idle sweetly.

See JackFish's post on his trouble with finding the right cam postion on his stock 1978 Fairmont Block. If you drop the sump, you can check thses clearances, and you'll be certain to find an amount of cam retard which will maintain rod to camshaft clearnace. (See viewtopic.php?t=65908#p504756)

See aslo viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61589&start=250

Here's a photo of my crank with the Mr. Gasket key for comparison. Bubba, I tried your trick of soaking the existing key in PB Blaster and then wailing on it with a punch. All I managed to do was start to flatten the key and I was afraid all my banging might be hurting the crank bearings. So I'm probably just going to leave well enough alone. If I could get it out and if it weren't too much work to fit the new key I might compromise and install the cam 2* advanced. Maybe I'll tap on it again tomorrow after the PB has soaked in a bit more... but if not, I'll probably be fine installed straight up.

(Click for larger versions)




And, if anyone wants to see the 250 timing set, here's another photo. You can see there are zero adjustments as it comes stock, without using an offset key or machining the gears.




On my Clay Smith cam anyway, the cam gear is indexed with a dowel pin.

 

[wsa111]

Need you to check a couple of things. Before the timing chain check.
Disconnect the white wire in your DS11. That wire would keep the spark retarded if left hot all the time. In your application you do not need the timing retarded when cranking.
Pull #1 spark plug & with a 13/16th socket on a long breaker bar rotate the piston to its highest position, you may have to back up if you went too far,i want the crank in the best mid position you can eyeball.
Now look at the timing mark on the crank pulley & see if is very close to 0 or TDC.
Since you stated it runs better at 35 degrees the rubber mounted damper ring may have rotated on the pulley hub.
If thats the case replace the pulley.
Next remove the distributor cap & rotate the rotor by hand to make sure it rotates some then returns to its original position via the distributor advance springs.
Put the cap back on & fire the engine up & let the engine get up to running temperature.
Next screw in the idle mixture screws & see if the idle speeds up with the screws turned all the way in. If yes you have a blown power valve in the 7448-350 holley.
If the idle slows down & stalls the power valve sounds like it may be ok.
With the engine in park bring up the idle speed to 950-1000 & hook up the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum.
Put a timing light on the pulley & see if the vacuum advance can is working if it is the idle will speed up, then adjust the idle speed back to 950 area & if the power valve is not blown set the idle to the highest speed or best vacuum then screw in the mixture screw 1/16 of a turn in or clockwise. That will get the mixture a little leaner via the rpm drop. Then readjust the idle speed screw to a 950 rpm idle in park. Place the shifter into drive & see if the engine idles better with manifold vacuum on the vacuum advance can.
Let us know what you find. Bill

 

[dawnovsky]

Need you to check a couple of things. Before the timing chain check.
Disconnect the white wire in your DS11. That wire would keep the spark retarded if left hot all the time. In your application you do not need the timing retarded when cranking.
Pull #1 spark plug & with a 13/16th socket on a long breaker bar rotate the piston to its highest position, you may have to back up if you went too far,i want the crank in the best mid position you can eyeball.
Now look at the timing mark on the crank pulley & see if is very close to 0 or TDC.
Since you stated it runs better at 35 degrees the rubber mounted damper ring may have rotated on the pulley hub.
If thats the case replace the pulley.
Next remove the distributor cap & rotate the rotor by hand to make sure it rotates some then returns to its original position via the distributor advance springs.
Put the cap back on & fire the engine up & let the engine get up to running temperature.
Next screw in the idle mixture screws & see if the idle speeds up with the screws turned all the way in. If yes you have a blown power valve in the 7448-350 holley.
If the idle slows down & stalls the power valve sounds like it may be ok.
With the engine in park bring up the idle speed to 950-1000 & hook up the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum.
Put a timing light on the pulley & see if the vacuum advance can is working if it is the idle will speed up, then adjust the idle speed back to 950 area & if the power valve is not blown set the idle to the highest speed or best vacuum then screw in the mixture screw 1/16 of a turn in or clockwise. That will get the mixture a little leaner via the rpm drop. Then readjust the idle speed screw to a 950 rpm idle in park. Place the shifter into drive & see if the engine idles better with manifold vacuum on the vacuum advance can.
Let us know what you find. Bill

i have done a part of it already.
when piston 1 all the way up, (tdc) timing mark is indicating TDC.
power valve mist be ok as engine stall when mixture is set to low.
in my opinion, sign are indicating general lack of power either cause by major vacuum leak( i don't thinks so) or more probably, improper valves adjustment (problely clearance)
I think i ll continu with proper valve adjustment before everything else as i start to thinks it might all be due to lack of airflow. cold compresssion test should givemore clue.