New engine question?

[ArtemisI6]

My girlfriend has an extremely rough 1967 Mustang coupe with a 3spd manual. She daily drives the car through all seasons... or will once it's reliable enough.


According to the odometer the car has 90,000 miles on it, and to the best of my knowledge the 200ci has never had any major work. It has a consistant 120psi in all cylinders, which seems extremely low to me but it's enough to run. However, the car uses up oil at an extraordinary rate. She goes through 2-3 quarts a week. There are no major leaks besides the leaky valve cover, which I am going to fix once the new one arrives. The car leaves a voluminous plume of blue smoke behind it everywhere it goes. The oil consumption is bad enough that it fouls the plugs bad enough that they need to be cleaned/changed every month or so.

Only working a part time job, she doesn't even have enough money to rebuild the motor - even if I'm the one doing it and she's only paying for parts. This prompted me to put an ad on Craigslist looking for a better-condition motor, specifically a '78+ Fairmont one as I understand those have better heads with bigger valves, plus Duraspark II. I have gotten two replies for Fairmont motors.

One is a 91,000 mile motor pulled out of a '79 Fairmont for a V8 swap. The guy wants $200 for the motor plus all the stuff he removed from the car for the swap.

The other is a 22,000 mile motor that's still in another '79 Fairmont. It was driven by an old lady and garaged its entire life with periodic maintenance. The owner has not decided whether he was going to sell the car complete yet or pull the motor, sell it, and keep the car. If he decided to keep the car he said he'd sell me the motor but he would not give me a price, instead telling me "make me an offer but don't insult me". I explained our situation and offered him $275 for the complete motor. For the first couple e-mails of our correspondance he would answer usually the same day I e-mailed him. However, now that I've made an offer he has not responded for over a week.

We desperately want the 22k mile motor but if I never hear from this guy again I won't have much of a choice. While I know that the later motors are superior metallurgically and do not wear out as fast, I'm still hesitant to purchase and install that 91,000 mile motor. I want to just put this motor in and be able to reasonably expect the car to run as good and reliably as possible without any major work required for at least the next 100,000 miles. I don't want to install this motor (which has a small bit more mileage than what's in the car now) and find that it smokes just as bad.

I guess what I'm asking here is really, how reasonable is my expectation? How much of a difference will I notice in a '79 200ci versus a '67 200ci, both with similar miles on them? Is $200 + the 4 hour drive worth it?

 

[BIGREDRASA]

First of all, that '67 more likely has 190,000 miles on it. Old odometers reset to "0" after 99,999.9 miles. as for the 22,000 mile engine, mayvbe you can have a friend email the seller and ask if it's still available.

Also, try this website: http://www.car-part.com/

 

[ArtemisI6]

I thought about the possibility of it having 190,000 miles but I figured it was probably in this condition merely because of the massive neglect and incompetent maintenance it was without a doubt put through. The car is in very, very poor shape and it has been completely apart at least once before, which is why I didn't say the car has 90,000 - I said the odometer claims it does.

car-part was actually EXTREMELY helpful. I found that the junkyard I very often frequent (for my personal project - hot rodding a Town Car) has a 1978 Fairmont with a 3.3L in stock. I'm going to have my girlfriend call them for pricing and condition on Monday.



However, my question still stands - how much of an improvement could I expect when replacing a '67 200ci with sub-100k 3.3L? I'm not too familiar with the pricing of these motors either. I see that one junkyard lists a motor with 74k for $350. That seems a little steep for a motor no one (besides people of our ilk) wants. Is it?

 

[Ranger_gone_straight]

If they warranty the engine, then about as fair a junkyard price as you will find. This is different than some guy that stuck V8 in his car and just wants the old 6 out of his way. Though sometimes junkyards will have a sale to clean out stock of older engines with little demand anymore to make room for newer engines. If they have a sale, they wont warranty the engine.

Personally I'd replace crank seals and anything else thats hard to get to before installing it. Since it has manual tranny, replace clutch disk and throw out bearing and pilot bearing and look pressure plate and flywheel over. If you werent so hard up for cash I'd just say buy complete new clutch kit and have flywheel resurfaced. Thats assuming you havent just recently replaced the clutch. Oh also is starter ring gear on the flywheel in good shape? Do this kind of stuff while engine is out, sucks to have to take things apart again in near furture to save few bucks now.

Used engines are a gamble. Even if junkyard warranties it, still lot labor involved.

 

[ArtemisI6]

Yeah, actually I did a new clutch, both bearings, and flywheel ring gear about two months ago. Also replaced the rear main seal, oil pump, and transmission tailshaft seal while I was at it. Kind of annoys me I've put so much time into this motor and this is how it's thanking me.

I'm probably going to put the "new" motor on an engine stand for a while so I can replace all the seals and probably put a new cam in it while I'm at it to wake her car up a little bit.

This brings me to my next question: How important is it to replace cam bearings, and how do you do it?

 

[early ford fan]

How important is it to replace cam bearings, and how do you do it?[/quote]

you need a special tool to change cam bearings.

 

[Lazy JW]

.....

I guess what I'm asking here is really, how reasonable is my expectation? .....

......Is $200 + the 4 hour drive worth it?

Well, since you asked.......... In my opinion your are being somewhat unreasonable. Why do I think that? First off, you have a 43 year old vehicle in "extremely rough" condition that smokes heavily, fouls plugs, and uses several quarts of oil per week that is intended for daily transportation by your girlfriend who presumably is not a mechanic. Then, you are debating if a $200 engine is "worth it". In addition, you bring up the idea of installing a high performance "cam in it while I'm at it to wake her car up a little bit".

Please do not misunderstand, I do not wish to insult you at all. However, this plan has "trouble" written all over it. I grew up driving all manner of old, worn out, junk vehicles and farm equipment. I have a fair idea of the potential problems/hassles involved keeping junkers operable, and believe I can say with some justification that if you truly need to ask the questions you have just asked, then the answer is NO!

Don't get me wrong, a knowledgeable, dedicated motorhead could drive this vehicle a long, long ways. I have done very similar things myself, but it sounds to me like your girlfriend had best keep her cel phone handy and hope her employer has a lenient attendance policy.
Joe

 

[ArtemisI6]

.....

I guess what I'm asking here is really, how reasonable is my expectation? .....

......Is $200 + the 4 hour drive worth it?

Well, since you asked.......... In my opinion your are being somewhat unreasonable. Why do I think that? First off, you have a 43 year old vehicle in "extremely rough" condition that smokes heavily, fouls plugs, and uses several quarts of oil per week that is intended for daily transportation by your girlfriend who presumably is not a mechanic. Then, you are debating if a $200 engine is "worth it". In addition, you bring up the idea of installing a high performance "cam in it while I'm at it to wake her car up a little bit".

Please do not misunderstand, I do not wish to insult you at all. However, this plan has "trouble" written all over it. I grew up driving all manner of old, worn out, junk vehicles and farm equipment. I have a fair idea of the potential problems/hassles involved keeping junkers operable, and believe I can say with some justification that if you truly need to ask the questions you have just asked, then the answer is NO!

Don't get me wrong, a knowledgeable, dedicated motorhead could drive this vehicle a long, long ways. I have done very similar things myself, but it sounds to me like your girlfriend had best keep her cel phone handy and hope her employer has a lenient attendance policy.
Joe

What you have just told me is more or less exactly what I repeatedly told her before she bought the car. She has wanted a vintage Mustang her entire life and stumbled upon one she could afford while shopping for a new car. After I checked the car out, I told her flat out that I think it is a tremendous mistake to buy the car - but I told her that if she did, I would be there to help her fix it provided she was there to learn and to provide assistance when needed. At this time last year it was sitting in a hangar as a hollow shell with literally no brakes and physically unable to run. It had not been registered in well over a decade and judging by the shape of the fuel system hadn't been driven in longer than that. The fact that the car is completely drivable now is a huge, HUGE leap whether it burns two gallons of oil a month or not. I do not want to derail this thread going into how much work we've both put into this car, but rest assured it is mindboggling.

I've been with her for several years now and we love eachother very much. If driving this car is what will make her happy then I will help her do exactly that. I am the dedicated motorhead that you speak of. I have never owned a car made after 1990. I hate new cars. I drive a 25 year old pickup truck with 370,000 miles that I bought three years ago for $200. Part of driving aging vehicles on a budget is knowing how to fix them. Though I have never rebuilt a motor before (besides the 500cc one-cylinder 4stroke in my 1977 Yamaha XT500), it is not because I can't - only because I have not yet had to. I enjoy large ongoing projects and this car is exactly that. I am also professionally trained and employed in the autobody field, so with my help she can repair the body for the cost of virgin steel and welding wire/gas. While she isn't a mechanic by any means, she is not entirely incapable by herself. She did a tuneup on the car herself and also installed a new oil pan and gasket with only the use of my tools aiding her. Unlike most women, she can pop the hood and name 95% of what's in there. She knows how to bleed brakes, and does her own oil changes. She recognizes gear oil based solely on smell. How many girls in their 20's know the difference between a straight six and a V6, let alone can tell you the manufacturer and how many barrels her carburetor has? She does keep her cell phone handy and I have guided her through getting the car home more than once over the phone.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood me on the subject of the cam. I would not consider stabbing a new cam into that old ratty motor. I was talking about getting a good-condition motor and putting a better cam in it while it's still out of the car. Also, not high performance by any means... just something with a little more pep than stock. I know you don't mean to insult me, but assuming I am naive enough to attempt a performance build on a completely worn out motor is insulting in itself.

My question as to whether it was "worth it" for the motor was more a question pertaining to what these engines typically sell for. I.E. is $200 + gas expense for a 91k motor fairly reasonable or no? It seems like the amounts people want for these motors fluctuate everywhere I look, and I am not used to shopping for antique motors - especially ones that most (outside of this site) car guys wouldn't even bother trying to sell. $200 for any other motor would be cheap in my opinion - however, while I love I6s they're not exactly popular when compared to V8s.

I appreciate your input as every post on the subject is interesting to read, but I have gotten lectured several times on how ridiculous it is to fix this car. I am not the one who should be getting the lectures because I agree wholeheartedly with most of them.

However if this is what she wants, this is what I'm going to do for her. This is a labor of love, not of logic.

 

[Lazy JW]

.... This is a labor of love, not of logic.

Fair enough; I have done and am doing plenty of things that defy logic as well.

Here's what I would do given your parameters:

#1. Buy the $200 engine
#2. Pull the head, pull the pistons
#3. If the pistons look decent, stuff on a fresh set of rings, hone the cylinders
#4. Install fresh main and rod bearings
#5. Install fresh seals and gaskets.
#6. Lap the valves by hand unless the are obviously bad
#7. Install fresh valve stem seals.
#8. Cam shaft: Fuhgeddabouditt. When she has driven this thing without a breakdown for two years and still wants more speed, THEN go for it. The cam will cost more than the $200 you spent for the engine, and your original post did mention a tight budget.

There is a recent thread about reliability; I suggest you read it as well.
Joe

 

[Lazy JW]

.... I know you don't mean to insult me, but assuming I am naive enough to attempt a performance build on a completely worn out motor is insulting in itself.....

There is no way possible that I can know your level of expertise, and you did ask some pretty elementary questions that led me to believe you haven't seen the inside of very many engines. Again, I have no desire to insult anyone, but it is also risky for me to assume that you have more experience than you do. I have indeed seen folks put high performance cams in worn out engines; boggles the mind, it does.
Joe

 

[BIGREDRASA]

Buy the $200 motor, as above. Take the DS II distributor and module from it an install into the smoker, so at least the plugs will fire. Gap the plugs to .050"-.052". Switch to straight 40 W oil.

 

[JoeJoe44]

Sounds like quit a gal.

.... This is a labor of love, not of logic.

Fair enough; I have done and am doing plenty of things that defy logic as well.

Here's what I would do given your parameters:

#1. Buy the $200 engine
#2. Pull the head, pull the pistons
#3. If the pistons look decent, stuff on a fresh set of rings, hone the cylinders
#4. Install fresh main and rod bearings
#5. Install fresh seals and gaskets.
#6. Lap the valves by hand unless the are obviously bad
#7. Install fresh valve stem seals.
#8. Cam shaft: Fuhgeddabouditt. When she has driven this thing without a breakdown for two years and still wants more speed, THEN go for it. The cam will cost more than the $200 you spent for the engine, and your original post did mention a tight budget.

There is a recent thread about reliability; I suggest you read it as well.
Joe

If you are going to do all this it doesn't seem like you would need to buy that engine. Since you are a motorhead find the out how the oil is getting into the combustion chamber and fix it! My guess is that the rings have gone bad. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the cam. If you fix the oil leak you will add more power back to your engine.

 

[Mustang_Geezer]

I'd give $200 for a motor that you could hear run. I've taken several used motors, given them new water pumps, fuel pumps, tune ups and ran them.

No sense spending anymore than you have to on a used motor. Its either going to run good or its not.

Later,

 

[ArtemisI6]

Sounds like quit a gal.

Well, that's why she's been around as long as she has.

If you are going to do all this it doesn't seem like you would need to buy that engine. Since you are a motorhead find the out how the oil is getting into the combustion chamber and fix it! My guess is that the rings have gone bad. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the cam. If you fix the oil leak you will add more power back to your engine.

Yeah, it's rings. I did new valve seals hoping to help the situation a little but it showed no obvious difference. She can't afford all the parts and machine work required to rebuild the motor + head so I figured just buying a used '78+ motor in decent shape would be the most affordable way.

Also, she called the junkyard that car-part.com listed as having an engine in stock - the car it was in was sold six months ago. :|


I'm going to e-mail this guy with the 22k motor and see if he responds as it's now been almost two weeks since I e-mailed him. If he doesn't want to sell us his motor I might tell the guy in Syracuse with the 91k motor that we'd like his.

I'd give $200 for a motor that you could hear run. I've taken several used motors, given them new water pumps, fuel pumps, tune ups and ran them.

No sense spending anymore than you have to on a used motor. Its either going to run good or its not.

Later,

That's what bothers me - the guy in Syracuse said the engine ran great but he pulled it for a V8 swap so there's no easy way for me to hear it run now. I have a new water pump and timing chain we bought for this motor but never got around to putting in. I also just put a new fuel pump and oil pump in that I can swap over to the new motor... I dunno. If I can hook up a bellhousing and starter to the motor and at least test the compression before we commit to it then that'd be fantastic... She could easily afford a gasket kit so i can disassemble the motor and reseal everything - really I want to do everything right with this motor before it goes in so I don't have to worry about it again.

There is no way possible that I can know your level of expertise, and you did ask some pretty elementary questions that led me to believe you haven't seen the inside of very many engines. Again, I have no desire to insult anyone, but it is also risky for me to assume that you have more experience than you do. I have indeed seen folks put high performance cams in worn out engines; boggles the mind, it does.
Joe

Oh, I know - that's why I can't reasonably get overly insulted by it. Obviously you don't know me personally so it's easy to base an opinion of someone off a single post of theirs - I've made that mistake many times. No harm, no foul.


Besides the superior 78+ cylinder head, the Duraspark II, and the improved metallurgy, are there any other improvements in the newer 3.3L vs 60's 200ci that I'm unaware of?