OK, my turn. Which Turbo & mating to header/exhaust ?'s

[Anonymous]

Well, I think I've made up my mind to add a turbo. Now, the questions...

I've read MUCH of what is here and I don't remember anyone posting a "best fit" turbo selection. I've read about TBirds, GN's, even Toyotas stuff, but I'm no engineer here fellas. I want a clear cut answer (or at least a very firm suggestion) as to which turbo I should look for (based on mounting and performance matching to my buildup).

To me, my biggest obstacle seems to be the plumbing of the exhaust. I'm running dual out Pacemakers. Can I tie the turbo in at any point or does it need to be at a certain distance from the motor? Can I just cut a T into one pipe AFTER the header collector and duct it back up to the turbo? Anyone tie a turbo to these headers before?

Where does the wastegate go? Plumbed back to the exhaust system somewhere?

What kind of aircleaner/filter would I use in front of the turbo (that's where it goes, right?)

Once it's mounted and the exhaust is plumbed, the rest seems pretty straight forward (oil line if needed, plumbing to the carb, etc). What am I missing?

Anyone have leads on the parts I need?

PS: just to add, I'm willing to sacrifice SOME performance for ease of install and fit. If that means a smaller turbo unit and a little less boost, then so be it.

 

[Does10s]

It would take more work to modify your existing header to accept a turbo than to make a new header. Either use the stock exhaust manifold or build a header yourself or order one from Mike at FSPP.
There is a company that is having some success with putting the turbo back where the rear axle is. This will require a lot of extra plumbing to install. And I'm not sure how they get the oil back into the oil pan?

I personally have a T4 turbo that a buddy of mine is trying to sell. He had a pair of them to start, and I've already sold one. So he's got one more left.

Yes the filter just attaches to the intake side on the compressor housing. A conical K&N is what is used.
The wastegate is nothing more than a valve that allows exhaust gasses (pressure) to bypass the turbine, thus controlling the speed of the turbine. Some turbos (T03s) use an internal W/G. The T04 mentioned above requires an external W/G.
A turbo system is never really "easy" to install. It requires lots of moving and modifying. If you use a header like ours then the battery needs to be moved. If you want an intercooler, then that needs to be installed. All of the intake piping needs to be fab'd up and installed. etc. etc.
All in all it's not to hard. But there is definately work to be done.
Later,
Will

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks as always Will.

I hate the thought of scrapping my headers and stock exhaust is out of the question.

The added plumbing for the rear mounted system I think would be easier than swapping headers (and buying the header), moving the battery (and alternator then I suppose), etc. If I were to T off of the oil pressure gauge spot on the block and plumb that back to the turbo, would it not be under pressure and "pump" oil back to the pan?

Does the wastegate get tied back into the exhaust or does it just leak the pressure out? Isn't that "pressure" just additional exhaust and if so, doesn't that get loud?

With your (Mike's) header, the turbo gets mounted front of the motor on the passenger side right? Does turbo theory require the Turbo to be mounted to the header? Why not just T into the exhaust after the header? I could T in and create a flange on the T portion (allowing for easy removal). Then pipe that up to the turbo..couldn't I?

Has anyone mounted a turbo to the driver's side area of one of our 6's? Seems to be MUCH more room there with my OZ250 setup! Passenger side of the engine well is JAMMED with the intake, huge carb, and those annoying shock towers. :roll:

Can the intercooler be mounted before OR after the turbo?

What does your buddy want for the T4? I see listings for T3/T4 by Garrett? Is that the one? What are the specs on his remaining unit? I'd also need to buy a wastegate for it right? They seem to be expensive! Are they all adjustable to control boost levels?

If you want, PM me with the sales details.
thanks TONS!

 

[Asa]

There is a company that is having some success with putting the turbo back where the rear axle is. This will require a lot of extra plumbing to install. And I'm not sure how they get the oil back into the oil pan?

that company specializes in F-bodies because of how tight the engine bay is
considering how much space there is in our engine bays, i'd consider it a little silly to install a turbo back there, especially considering all the points of failure, and the fact of how inefficient it is

Why not just T into the exhaust after the header? I could T in and create a flange on the T portion (allowing for easy removal). Then pipe that up to the turbo..couldn't I?

Has anyone mounted a turbo to the driver's side area of one of our 6's? Seems to be MUCH more room there with my OZ250 setup! Passenger side of the engine well is JAMMED with the intake, huge carb, and those annoying shock towers.

Can the intercooler be mounted before OR after the turbo?

you could keep the headers and add the turbo afterwards, but the thing about turbos is that they work the best the closest they are to the exhaust ports, so that would also explain why it wouldn't be a good idea to put it on the driver's side
the farther away it is, the longer it takes the turbo to spool up, so the less efficient it is

intercooler works by cooling down the charge going into the intake, so it needs to be between the turbo and the carb

i'd really recommend that you go pick up a good book on turbos, Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes is a good one, it will help answer most questions you might ask here

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks again. I really understand the principals of the turbo. I'm more interested in fit issues. To me, reading a good book is great for getting some background knowledge, but issues are so unique to each setup, that's as far as that knowledge is worth...to me anyway. I need to hear from guys that have done this and succeeded (and failed!).

I'm not looking for best ETA thousandths of seconds down the strip, so would the difference in spool up time be THAT noticeable 2 feet farther down the line? If I went with a smaller unit, they tend to spool up better right?

I'm MOST interested in low end torque and excelleration vs. more top end. Have you ever done 100mph in a '63 Falcon convertible? scarry. that's plenty for me as it is! I just want to get there faster!

exhaust gas speed is used to turn the turbine, so would I be wise to keep the exhaust extension that I'll tie into the turbo small in diameter? My pipes are 2". Should it be smaller or would that work ok?

Again, thanks TONS for the help!

 

[Asa]

Thanks again. I really understand the principals of the turbo. I'm more interested in fit issues. To me, reading a good book is great for getting some background knowledge, but issues are so unique to each setup, that's as far as that knowledge is worth...to me anyway. I need to hear from guys that have done this and succeeded (and failed!).

I'm not looking for best ETA thousandths of seconds down the strip, so would the difference in spool up time be THAT noticeable 2 feet farther down the line? If I went with a smaller unit, they tend to spool up better right?

I'm MOST interested in low end torque and excelleration vs. more top end. Have you ever done 100mph in a '63 Falcon convertible? scarry. that's plenty for me as it is! I just want to get there faster!

exhaust gas speed is used to turn the turbine, so would I be wise to keep the exhaust extension that I'll tie into the turbo small in diameter? My pipes are 2". Should it be smaller or would that work ok?

Again, thanks TONS for the help!

i understand about just wanting to know about the fit issues, but about half your questions look like ones that you'd be able to figure out through information in these books
knowlege is good, but not understanding what you know isn't really a good policy, what happens if later down the line you want to upgrade? you'll have to come back and ask pretty much the same questions all over again
not understanding what you know can even be dangerous at times (although i'd fail to see how in this particular case)

anyways, enough with the preaching

and the turbo lag could be that noticable, the exhaust gas spins the turbo, and the hotter it is, the faster it will move

a smaller turbo does spin up faster, but it will also reach it's limit sooner and then you'll have to let off boost or risk over spinning the turbo and causing damage to it

 

[Anonymous]

Again, I appreciate the advice and knowledge (even if I don't understand it )

I think I'm going to tread down this path (someone here has done this, I know they have):

- since I have zero room on the passenger side and I don't want to swap headers, I'll T into the 2" immediately after the collector

- mount a turbo on the driver's side in the well

- run oil line from the oil pressure bung and down into the pan (add bulkhead type fitting)

- use K&N cone filter in the front of the turbo

- use some nice shiny pipework to jump the motor and meet up with the carb bonnet


can someone recommend a reasonable priced carb bonnet that'll fit a Holley? K&N sells these:
http://knfilters.com/Racing/plenum.htm

would they work for a turbo setup ok (they say for cold air intake)?

 

[Anonymous]

I think you'll find that the turbo is mounted near the exhaust ports because you want to take advantage of the hot exhaust. As the exhaust moves thru pipes, especially headers, it cools and looses its energy. You can't "T" off of the headers for the turbo, you need to run ALL of the exhaust thru the turbo for it to work properly.

 

[Asa]

BTW - i am looking for a header for my exhaust, depending on when you'd be doing this, i'd be willing to buy yours
Jet Hot coated?

 

[Anonymous]

You can't "T" off of the headers for the turbo, you need to run ALL of the exhaust thru the turbo for it to work properly.

OH! THAT i was not aware of! So then ALL of the exhaust gases get pushed through the carb or out the wastegate? That seems to present an infinite loop doesn't it?!?

exhaust runs into the header/manifold then into the turbo then into the carb/intake/engine just to be blown back out the exhaust manifold into the turbo again?!

I'm clearly not understanding what you mean..sorry

forget that...I just got it. I understand now....

still, I was SURE guys were doing what I'm talking about (not running ALL exhaust through). I guess if I had to I could get a 2 to 1 Y collector, plumb that around to the turbo then use another 2 to 1 backwards to split it back out to my 2 exhausts....eh?

Yes, it's a Pacemaker dual out jet coated form Mike (fspp). Gorgeous piece. Like I said, I REALLY doubt I'll be swapping headers. If I can't make something in a turbo work like this, then I'll have to look at a supercharger instead eh? Or just ram air.

 

[Anonymous]

To get the most performance from a turbocharger, you'll want to get rid of the headers you have and either go with a stock manifold (mine is) or fab one up to suit your turbo (I will when I finish everything else on this Bronco).

 

[Anonymous]

ok, so define "most" by eliminating the headers vs. what I would likely get by running from ONE of the collectors (3 cylinders), looped to the turbo, then back to the exhaust. Again, I'm not looking to shave thousandths here. I absolutely want noticeable..very noticeable acceleration, but if we're talking gaining only 75% doing it my way vs. 100% doing the right way, I'll take 75% and NOT scrapping my entire BRAND NEW exhaust system. (those percentages are just conversation not real HP performance gains! :roll: )


anyone gotta lines on a cheap supercharger?

 

[Anonymous]

asa67_stang said "i'd really recommend that you go pick up a good book on turbos, Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes is a good one, it will help answer most questions you might ask here"

I agree with him, there's more involved when it comes to installing a turbo than just having the right turbo for the job. Knowing how to properly install it is very important.

 

[Does10s]

Here's quick read on theory.
http://www.turbodriven.com/en/turbofacts/principles.asp
This may help a little bit.

If you have a two collector header then you need to have two turbos. If you run one turbo with one of your existing collectors then three cylinders will have more back pressure than the other three. The motor will run like crap. The turbine housing is a restriction. That's why the turbine spins. It forces the exhaust into a small space around the turbine.

Like someone said above, ALL of the exhaust must run thru the turbo. The wastegate will bleed off some of it to reduce the "back pressure" that is spinning the turbine. This happens when you reach a set "intake pressure", called "boost".

If you use your existing header the turbos will be so low the oil will not be able to drain "up" to your oil pan. The oil will go out the bearings and you will be killing a whole lot of bugs with all of the blue smoke pouring out of your tailpipe!
The oil coming out of the turbo bearings is so beat up it resembles the froth on a Mocha Cappachino! It has very little pressure. The only low mounted turbos I've ever seen use a engine driven vacuum pump to suck the oil back into the motor.

Hope this helps a bit!
Will

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks much. That does help. The different backpressure on the cylinders I understand. Well, it looks like I'll be shopping for a supercharger then. I just REALLY don't want to deal with hacking the entire exhaust system up.

So, looks like I'll search the forums for the supercharger of choice and then post my questions. I understand the principles of an SC. Can someone explain why they are so much more money that a turbo unit?what's teh difference? Seems like a turbo has more parts (turbine and the compressor) where as a supercharger is essentially, just the compressor. What am I missing?

 

[ruckus68]

hello 63Droptop

I'd suggest you check out mustanaroo's setup with the oz head and a supercharger. looks nice and clean and should be what you are looking for. That is the same route i will be taking when it is time. i already have the header and exhaust so may as well.

here is a thread with a nice pic of his setup

Good Luck
John

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#151430

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

I say just remove teh header and have the turbo feed back into the headerflanges you already have. sell the header to pay for some of the other parts..

 

[Anonymous]

Believe me, 'Roo's setup is what STARTED this whole thing! I just want to know why superchargers are sooo much more expensive than turbos (in general). Isn't a SC just the front half of a turbo with a pulley on it?! In the end, isn't it just a freakin air pump?!

 

[Anonymous]

..

 

[Anonymous]

What is compression ratio currently? I think you need compression ration around 8.1 to run a boost. If you have already raised your compression ratio to 9.5 or higher you may not be able to run much boost.

Bob