optimal hardware to go with a turbo for street performance?

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I have a 63 falcon Conv with a 200 in it. I just bought a "turbo kit" that comes with custom piping, mounting, etc. What additional changes would any of you make while adding this:

1. Headers - I assume there is no need for a header and that stock exhaust manifild will function just as well sinse th exhaust must run through the turbo anyway? Is this correct or should I add headers?

2. I figure a better ignition system is a good idea.

3. I will probably use EFI, the set-up does not have an intercooler and is a pull through set-up, any comments?

Any other items I shouldf consider to ge the most out of the turbo system?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[hasa68mustang]

were you the one who bought the 1000 dollar one off ebay? if so let us know how it works out!

 

[Anonymous]

I am the one who bought the kit off ebay. Do you think I paid too much? I really was not sure but it seemed like a nice bolt on kit for the money. Any comments would be apprecaited.

Mike

 

[addo]

I'm not sure if it was ever actually run on that motor.

There are a lot of armchair critics who will say "too large this, too small that" but realistically you have quite a range of possible outcomes without being dire or unfeasible. It should work (as long as it can fit the space available), and you will certainly need to optimise to your own setup.

Be sure there is adequate airflow to cool around the unit. Expect to spend time messing with your carb and ignition. Remember that results will reflect the present form of your motor also - and don't have unrealistic ambitions about the turbocharged power.

When you get it right, there should be a pleasant gain in overall power levels, possibly with only marginal loss of fuel economy.

Regards, Adam.

 

[Anonymous]

Adam - Thanks for the advice. Do you think the price of $1000.oo was a fair deal or do you think I over paid?


Thanks,
Mike

 

[addo]

I really don't know. It depends so much on what one can actually achieve to a satisfactory level, oneself. But adding up all the parts - there's a few bob in that, and getting them adapted to work together is another few dollars. So it has some appreciable "intrinsic" worth. But I'm in another country, with different prices charged for parts and labour so can't compare beyond that.

It looks as though it should bolt in and run straight away. That's pretty good because you can progressively hone your state of tuning.

We all want to see it fitted!

 

[Anonymous]

For reference, most "complete turbo kits" I see advertised tend to be about $2500-ish. So if this is a true bolt-on, then you got a good deal. It depends on how you value your time. Someone did a fair amount of work on that set-up. You could probably buy the components and fab the kit yourself for cheaper. It would take time and bargain shopping. Do you want to spend the development time on that, or pay someone else to do it?

Let us know how it turns out. We like hearing success stories here, and there's a lot of guys with know-how to help along the way.

--mikey

 

[Anonymous]

mglincoln --

I did not see the EBay listing of your kit, so I am only writing here based on what was written before... So take it all with a grain of salt. I am running a 65 mustang with a 250, a 4# boost, carbureted draw-through TO4, that was installed in winter of '87/'88. Standard fuel system and supply. Duraspark ignition. T5 five speed. So I have some experience with what you are looking at.

Headers VS Manifod.
If the set-up truly has all the piping/tubes with it, you may have no choice for exhaust maniforlds vs headers (without doing your own fabrication) -- the pipes will determine where the turbo goes, and so, where it taps into the exhaust system. Cast exhaust manifolds are short. Most headers are longer, and some are much longer. Total clearance for the system could be tricky as well with headers. Trial and error is a big part of the work.

Intercoolers.
If it is a 'draw-through' system (i.e., the carb is unpressurized and 'upstream' of the turbo), you cannot expect an intercooler to work. The air moving through the turbo - intercooler - intake in a draw-through set-up has fuel atomized in it. Cooling it and running it through several feet of tubing will screw up its dispersion and likely lead to puddling well before it gets to the intake. And our inline intakes need all the help they can get already!

Other thoughts.
Also be aware that while draw-throughs carry advantages in simplicity, they also suffer from some problems. First, as I said, is that they can't use intercoolers, so the total boost is limited. Second, they are prone to icing, even in warm weather. I see you are in Colorado, where the low humidity level will help avoid that. I lived in the central valley of California when I got my Mustang worked up. It did fine in the desert-like environment. Now that I live in North Carolina, where summer humidity levels stay above 80% for months at a time, it is a little more problematic.

More info sources.
You may want to look into some books that talk about total systems before you start hacking away at your Falcon. I've found three books that are useful. From oldest to newest they are :

1. Turbochargers. Hugh MacInnes. HPBooks. 1984.
Still very good for the basics of turbocharging, in walking you through calculations, etc. Helps a lot with carburetion ideas, too. Out of date regarding intercoolers, electronic ignitions, and boost control technologies.

2. Turbomania. Bob Tomlinson. CB Performance Products. 1997.
This is a Volkswagen-only turgocharging book, so it doesn't directly address our kinds of engines. However, VW's use a lot of draw-through installations, are very susceptible to increases in intake temperature, and are very limited in engine compartment space, so it is useful for picking up tricks with this kind of system design.

3. Maximum Boost. Corky Bell. Bentley Publishers. 1997.
Lots of good up-to-date system design info. Understand, however, that Mr. Bell is not afraid to voice his opinions. He does not care for carburetors, and has little time for draw-through designs. So be prepared to take some lumps from him if that is what you are working with. However, he does a good job on tips to coordinate boost controls, fuel system, and electronic ignitions to get the best system you can.

Good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

Barret, Mikey - I want to thank you both for your input. I will keep the group posted on the install.

Barret - Thanks for detail, i will go to Amazon and get a book or two. It is set up as a pull-through as you suspected. Thanks to you I now see why an intercooler is not an option. I shouold get the system in 1 week I'll let you all know how it goes. BY the way what kind of performance do you get out of your set-up? I am really shooting for an ejoyable streetable performance, not just all out performance but something that is enjoyable to drive on a regular basis. I am targeting about 220HP once the turbo, EFI, spark, mild Cam and the turbo are all installed. I am also consdiering changin out my 4 speed for a new electronic automatic, any thoughts on doing that? How do you like you T5?

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

mglincoln --

I look forward to hearing about your new adventures with turbocharging an I-6.

I really like the T5 tranny in my mustang. The car came stock with a non-syncro 3-speed, so anything would have been an improvement, but the T5's range really wakes it up. I have always preferred manuals over automatics, so that'd be the way I'll always suggest for anyone to go, too. I don't know enough about the automatics to comment.

As far as the performance I get from mine, I've never taken it to a dyno, so I can't say for sure. Calculations, from McInnes' book, suggest my stock, carbureted 250 with 4# boost should be hitting about 197 HP. Ak Miller, the highly recognized guru of I6 turbocharging who designed and installed it, said a set-up like mine should hit 195hp, and in a light Falcon/Mustang body ought to do a 95-100 mph quarter mile. I still have the fairly weak, stock 6-cylinder differential in it, so have never tried to do any serious drag racing -- I'm not interested enough in 1/4 mile speeds to grind up the diff and leave bouncing behind me.

Before I left California in 1989 I took it out on the rural roads in the valley -- similar to the flat, laser straight, long, long roads in eastern CO -- and floored it. The old Falcon-style speedo pegged at 120mph, the tach was at 3300 rpm, and my seat-of-the-pants dyno suggested it was just starting to breathe nicely. With the T5 and 3.2 diff, it has a _theoretical_ top speed at 4400 rpm of just about 160 mph. I doubt it has the HP to actually do that, but I do know that it still had plenty of 'oomph' (a technical turbocharging term...) at 120mph. However, at that point my brain was screaming to remind me that most of the Mustang was bone stock, nearly 25 years old, and was _never_ designed to go so fast -- so I didn't push it any further.

I average about 22 mpg on 92-93 octane. Ak felt it would run on 91 octane, but I was more comfortable with premium. The best mileage I can get is around 27 mpg on a mostly freeway trip. The worst I got was a hard driving 'on- the- turbo- as- much- as- I- could- without- careening- off- the- road' just under 17 mpg on a trip from the San Joaquin valley over the Coastal range to the Central Coast. Legal highway speeds (55-65 mph) with the T5 have the engine running in the 1500-1800 rpm range in 5th gear, and a quick downshift to 3rd gear will jump it to around 3200-3600 rpm and allow it to accelerate quickly.

It has run like a champ, but after about 15 years with this set-up, I am itching to upgrade again. Since it is an Ak Miller system, I don't want to hack it apart -- it may be more valuable in an "Antiques Roadshow" sort of way than anything I could re-fabricate it into. Anyway, I would really like to go for EFI, intercool it, and raise the boost. That'll mean some large investments in body stiffness, suspension, and drive train (probably bite the bullet and go to an 8" diff and 5-bolt wheels all around). It needs body work right now (after 40 years, rust and leaks are appearing), so it has been up on blocks in my garage for far longer than I care to say.

Again, good luck. Take your time, and keep your main goals in mind. You've waited this long to upgrade, so don't be in a hurry. Speed costs a lot; mistakes cost much more. Most of all, have fun.

--- Barrett

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Mike,

Here are some of my thoughts.

The stock manifold is a piece of junk for flow. It´s going to cause high pressure in the exhaust manifold even at low boost levels. Considering that you do not plan to intercool, this may not be so terrible. 5-7 psi could be attained safely and is quite respectable. I didn´t see the exhaust manifold. What is the casting number on it? Manifolds on 70´s cars were a little larger in volume and would be worth changing to if you have a 60´s version. As far as headers go, you will only put more room between the head and the turbo and let the heat get out even easier. Stick with the cast manifold.

The turbo is located on the driver´s side of the engine which will isolate the intake charge from it´s heat. However, I think you will loose that gain by having the turbo so far from the manifold. The isulation wrap would be wisely replaced by having the pipe to the turbo ceramic coated if it´s not already, to better keep the heat in, and to protect it from corrosion and improve the looks.

From what I could tell from the picture, it had a 1bbl TBI setup on it. Is that correct? I don´t see that supporting more than 130-140HP - did you have something else in mind?