Priming my oil system, gonna start her tonite

[WestCoastComet]

Hey everybody, I'm Scott from Los Angeles. I'm new to the forum.

I am currently working on getting my 1972 Mercury Comet's 200 ci put back together after a valve job, new cooling system, new lifters, new pushrods, new rocker shaft, cleaned pan, etc. I thought I had primed my oil pump enough because my dummy light said there was oil pressure. However, when I fired it up, I could hear all of my lifters clacking and my purshrods jumping. So I shut her down and thought "why is there no oil still?". I did not soak the lifters in oil, just lubed the exterior heavily with lucas oil assembly lube. However, I thought the priming would fill the lifters.

How long are you supposed to prime with a drill on a six? How long should it take to get oil to the top end? Does anyone think I messed anything up? I ran her for about a minute. She ran in perfect order other than the clacking from the lifters. Good timing, good ignition of the charge, etc. Overall smooth running, but noisy. Any ideas or insight into this would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[vssman]

What did you use to drive the pump?

If you used a socket with an extension: I found I had to remove the drive gear off of the distributor to seal the oil galley that runs through it in order to get the oil to the top half of the engine. Even with that I had a lot of clatter on start up. Take distributor out (or use the old one if you replaced it) and take the gear off by using a drift punch to remove the cross pin. The gear goes on one way so if you have to put it back on make sure you mark the gear and shaft (the pin is not exactly straight across the gear - at least mine isn't). Put the distributor back in and using a wrench, socket, whatever, drive the rotor end of the shaft to build oil pressure until you see oil at the rockers. Then try restarting the engine (after you put the gear back on) and see if the clatter goes away. Without listening to it, it's hard to say if there was any real damage. But I'd guess unless the engine was knocking, it probably is OK.

FWIW, mine made all kinds of clatter on start up.

 

[WestCoastComet]

Well, I don't have an extra distributor, but I have been told that some parts stores sell an item that is similar to a distributor's shape and can have the same effect of pressurizing that galley. have you or anyone you know used this primer tool? In the cases I have seen them used it was for a small block ford. Do they make one for sixes? I gots to get one if they do.

 

[powerband]

Below the distrib gear/cam is the oil pump. There is a hexagonal drive key slips into and joins oil pump and distributor. Anything can be used to drive oil pump or key once dizzy is out. Caution > When dizzy is put back in, Hex key can easily fall out-into oil pan. If key is missing, dizzy works and engine runs but ... not for very long :roll:

I use shaft from trashed dizzy but right size long allen key or socket could work. I be sure Temp/Oil Press. guages are monitored at sartup.

Try turning engine by hand to open oil passages while priming, pour some through lifter galley if VC is off, It takes longer than comfortable for oil to weep from rocker shaft when engine starts...


<>

Have Fun

 

[JackFish]

I found I had to remove the drive gear off of the distributor to seal the oil galley that runs through it in order to get the oil to the top half of the engine. Even with that I had a lot of clatter on start up. Take distributor out (or use the old one if you replaced it) and take the gear off by using a drift punch to remove the cross pin. The gear goes on one way so if you have to put it back on make sure you mark the gear and shaft (the pin is not exactly straight across the gear - at least mine isn't). Put the distributor back in and using a wrench, socket, whatever, drive the rotor end of the shaft to build oil pressure until you see oil at the rockers. Then try restarting the engine (after you put the gear back on) and see if the clatter goes away. Without listening to it, it's hard to say if there was any real damage. But I'd guess unless the engine was knocking, it probably is OK.

FWIW, mine made all kinds of clatter on start up.

Wow, removing the dizzy gear shouldn't be necessary, that's pretty extreme, and I'm surprised that it went off and on so easily for you. I had to take mine to a machine shop to have a gear pressed on.

I just used a 5/16 socket on an extension on a drill on the dizzy shaft. 30 seconds and you're done as soon as you see oil coming up and out the top end.
I hope that assembly lube you put on the cam and lifters, etc. was really thick and clingy.

 

[WestCoastComet]

Below the distrib gear/cam is the oil pump. There is a hexagonal drive key slips into and joins oil pump and distributor. Anything can be used to drive oil pump or key once dizzy is out. Caution > When dizzy is put back in, Hex key can easily fall out-into oil pan. If key is missing, dizzy works and engine runs but ... not for very long :roll:

I use shaft from trashed dizzy but right size long allen key or socket could work. I be sure Temp/Oil Press. guages are monitored at sartup.

Try turning engine by hand to open oil passages while priming, pour some through lifter galley if VC is off, It takes longer than comfortable for oil to weep from rocker shaft when engine starts...


<>

Have Fun

Will I notice if the key falls out or not? is there any sort of visibility into the dist cavity? Does this key usually stick in with the oil pump or get pulled up stuck to the distributor?

 

[WestCoastComet]

Wow, removing the dizzy gear shouldn't be necessary, that's pretty extreme, and I'm surprised that it went off and on so easily for you. I had to take mine to a machine shop to have a gear pressed on.

I just used a 5/16 socket on an extension on a drill on the dizzy shaft. 30 seconds and you're done as soon as you see oil coming up and out the top end.
I hope that assembly lube you put on the cam and lifters, etc. was really thick and clingy.[/quote]



Lucas oil assembly lube is pretty thick. I lubed the insides of the rockers and the shaft and everything. I think I'll lube it again before I fire it up again though! My bottom end is solid, so no knocking, but man you could hear those lifters. I was considering just letting her warm up and eventually the shaft would get oil, but I chickened out after like a minute. I'm just not used to hearing that sound. I think I'll just prime it more with the drill.

 

[powerband]

stick in with the oil pump or get pulled up stuck to the distributor?

> 50/50 for me

Will I notice if the key falls out or not?

>Guage will show NO OIL PRESSURE

> before you install the distributor, you should easily see the hex shaft is in there, then slide dizzy into it. long as dizzy isn't pulled mostly out, key is fine. If you need to re-position gear , check again before final install.

Have Fun

 

[PhantomAce]

When it came time to prime my new 200 the kid and I just took two 5/16" allen wrenches, cut the short leg off, welded them together straight, ground the weld smooth, checked for gaps, welded again, ground again...
Once we were done we had a really long 5/16" hex-shaft that we could drop into the oil pump through the distributor hole and hit with a drill until we had oil coming out at the top end. Once that was verified we installed the oil-pump drive shaft and distributor and fired it up. Had instant, gauge verified oil pressure on fire-up and didn't have any clatter at all from the top end (other than a little lash noise) after about 5 seconds or so.
Proceeded through 2k rpm break-in for half an hour with no problems.
Easy breezy.

 

[echo1955]

I used a 1/4 inch 8mm socket and it works grrrrreat.. also as JackFish says..
a 5/16 does the same thing. They both will fit the pump drive gear perfect.

I already had the short extension cut.

 

[WestCoastComet]

When it came time to prime my new 200 the kid and I just took two 5/16" allen wrenches, cut the short leg off, welded them together straight, ground the weld smooth, checked for gaps, welded again, ground again...
Once we were done we had a really long 5/16" hex-shaft that we could drop into the oil pump through the distributor hole and hit with a drill until we had oil coming out at the top end. Once that was verified we installed the oil-pump drive shaft and distributor and fired it up. Had instant, gauge verified oil pressure on fire-up and didn't have any clatter at all from the top end (other than a little lash noise) after about 5 seconds or so.
Proceeded through 2k rpm break-in for half an hour with no problems.
Easy breezy.

For all y'all who been following this thread, I got a head scratcher....

I did pretty much what you did, Phantom. Me and my buddy jerry-rigged a tool to drive my oil pump shaft via the distributor cavity, removed valve cover, spun pump drive shaft with drill for 45-60 seconds. Good oil from all rockers, evenly flowing from all holes in rockers. Good oil pressure, although I only have a dummy light (it works though). We fired her up, good pressure, timing was perfect, so I guess we put the distributor in exactly as removed. No clatter. Broke her in for 30-40 minutes at approximately 1700-2000 RPM (my Comet has no tach). She ran perfect. My new radiator, water pump, etc. were keeping her very cool. No leaks, no clatter, no worries.

Anyhow, we went for a drive, taking it easy of course. Good power, very smooth, yadda yadda yadda. We drove for maybe an hour. We parked in my driveway and sat back for a nice cold one. We were leaving for dinner, and my pops walks over and curses me with these words: "Is she running good?"....... "I think so," I said. I put my key in the ignition, turn it over and Click Click Click Click Click Click Click...... I could hear one of my lifters clicking. One of my lifters has inexplicably gone rotten or has too much slack, which should not be, as my rockers are non-adjustable. Why would it run so perfectly for an hour and then suddenly start acting up? I'm very disappointed. If there is too much slack, I cannot adjust them to take up that slack. Perhaps an oversize pushrod is in order? Even that would not explain it being perfectly fine for an hour, then suddenly being wildly out of spec. What could have caused this?

Help me Obi-Wan Kanobi. You're my only hope. But seriously guys, I'm tired of riding my bike to work. Anybody out there got an idea? I'm starting to feel as if a rebuild is in order because I'm very tired of wrenching at this point. Thanks for any replies.

 

[JackFish]

Are you sure it's not the fuel pump?

 

[WestCoastComet]

Are you sure it's not the fuel pump?

Interesting that you mention this, JackFish... I had put my hand on the fuel pump by chance while it was running (I had thought my flared steel tube from the tank wasn't tightened down enough) and noticed quite a knocking pulse from the fuel pump housing. Can't feel the knock when I touch other parts of the motor. Do fuel pumps usually have such a hard knock to them? Thinking this was normal operation, I didn't even consider that as the source of the sound. Have you encountered bad fuel pumps as the culprit of a very loud clicking? The fuel pump must have been dry perhaps 7 months. It sounds like one of my lifters, although somewhat heavier and louder. But I have little experience with diagnostics. What's more though, I must note that the motor runs VERY smoothly. Would a bad lifter cause stumbling or otherwise bad running? It seems to run exactly the same as before it started making the sound. I only ran it for maybe 45 seconds at idle, but shut it off for fear of my lifters and brand new rocker shaft. So I have no info as to whether the driving characteristics of the car have changed. Its seems to be running too good for this kind of thing. I'd crap smiles if it was only a fuel pump. Thanks for the reply... Lemme know what you think.

 

[WestCoastComet]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the help on this one. I hate to have bad news though.

I have replaced my fuel pump in the hope of getting rid of that clicking, but it didn't help. I suppose I have 2 good fuel pumps now. My only idea now is that I have one lifter not getting oil or something. I'll try to turn it over in my head. It really seems to be running tip top, but I guess something has too much slack. I suppose it's possible that one of my cam lobes has worn beyond spec, and is slapping a lifter, but this motor has only 60,000 factory miles on it and appears to always have had oil. So this seems a very unlikely scenario. All the valve train junk is brand new. Don't know what it is.

Anybody got an idea?

 

[powerband]

Anybody got an idea?

Verify oil pressure.

I didn't catch if rockers are adjustable?.

Noisy startup rarely is defective new lifters. Hopefully a little adjustment and wear-in needed on pushrods/rockers. I had a bad alternator bearing knock drive me crazy, remove fan belt to further test accessories. 'Could try running with valve cover off: close observation and dampening valve action sequentially with hand, may isolate if lifter. It's a little messy but may reveal simple adjustment or alignment problems with quick work.

Lifters in my cars sometimes click after sitting a time. I find shutting down after short startup for @ 10 sec. then re-start often stops noise - (lifter galleys ?)

Have Fun

 

[WestCoastComet]

We primed it with a drill, and saw oil coming out of rockers, ran it and it ran fine. No noise from lifters. Now it doesn't sound like all the lifters (before I primed it, they were all clicking,) but just one. It has pressure.

I have non adjustable rockers. I wish they were adjustable now. The noise is definitely in the block, not accessories. It doesn't seem like the sort of click your lifters have after sitting for a while. Besides, we were driving it like 30 minutes before this started, so I'm sure it's not just from sitting for a while.

I think this weekend I'll run it with the valve cover off and feel the rockers, pushrods, etc. Maybe a longer pushrod will fix it. It just seems like that shouldn't be necessary you know? This head has never been milled before, and my machine guy only milled off enough to clean it up. With the new felpro gasket taking the place of my original shim gasket, I'm sure the dimensions should be okay. Plus, if it's the rocker shaft height that's the problem, all of the pushrods and lifters should be making noise.

ANY ideas are welcome guys... even bad ones.

 

[powerband]

Well as long as it is lifter noise, a little lifter noise is generally not immediately harmful but the sound won't let you ignore. A little milling, gasket and OEM parts dimension vagaries can add up with the lever ratio of the rockers. Adjustables add confidence for the builder.

 

[echo1955]

Hey WestCoastComet

I don’t have the first clue about non-adjustable rockers.
I noticed you did not include if you replaced your rocker arms.
If this is the case I see no harm in considering this as a way to isolate your issue..
Well even if you replaced the rocker arms this is still worth considering.

Ignition key off
Remove the negative cable from battery
Remove the coil wire from the coil.
Remove all spark plugs
Remove valve cover
Recheck torque on rocker assembly bolts

Turn crank by hand until #1 piston is TDC. Both intake and exhaust valves will be closed.
OR
Turn the crank by hand until you can see both intake and exhaust valves are closed on #1 cylinder.

With your fingers rotate each push rod and note the resistance you have.

Repeat this for each cylinder.

The misbehaving lifter will have a looser resistance.

Check that rocker arm for excessive wear..on both ends

Good luck..

 

[powerband]

echo1955 has right idea, start simple check static clearances - before running with VC off

Have Fun

 

[echo1955]

Say I thought I would add this latter:
You were asking how long should you prime the engine with a drill.

Personally I prime just slow enough to give the oil a chance to get back home with out spilling over the edge of block. I keep priming until I see oil flowing from all ports.

I keep priming until my finger can no longer hold the trigger. I rest a bit and do it all over and over and over again.

You see I have this paranoia about starting the engine with any oil…..

Seriously: when you drove the car those lifters were fully primed and with out noise..
The fact that after your shutdown and restarted the noise showed up indicates to me that perhaps a lifter could have collapsed..

It’s not unheard of.
GL..