All Small Six My 200 CI mystery

[awasson]

Really nice look all 'round in there! Just FYI- max power, especially lower-end torque is always obtained with a single exhaust, including on V8's. Use a smooth Y into a single. If you want duals, at least use a X pipe or crossover to connect the two sides, or you're throwing away at least 15 lbs of torque.

Thanks for the tip on an X-Pipe. I’ve seen some info about straight duals, H and X pipes and was leaning towards the idea of an X-pipe to connect the two sides. I’ll run a Y-pipe into the existing single for a while so I can plan the system.

I’ll do a video of this beast in the next few days. It’s too obnoxiously loud because I the headers echo under the car so I’ll do it after I connect the exhaust.

 

[awasson]

I’ve been pretty busy and have only put about 60 miles on the new engine. I didn’t want to put very many miles on until I had replaced the tires and cleaned up the exhaust system I cobbled together. Last week I got it in for 2” from the Y-pipe to the back with a generic muffler. All of the important features are fully operable (brakes, all lights, signals, horn, etc). I’m still fussing with the timing and carb but it’s really quite well sorted out. Now all I need to do is put some miles on her. Well, that and put the 5-speed in.

Oh, video of the engine running. I had just come back from a little drive around town. I have to lower the idle speed. It’s at about 850 RPM in this video. Oh, the throwout bearing is a bit noisy too. I can hear it in the video pretty clearly.

 

[Frank]

Looks and sounds great!
If the throwout bearing is turning when the clutch is not depressed, the pedal needs adjusting. The throwout bearing does not turn except when the clutch pedal is being pressed. Add free-play to the pedal.
Also check the trans (and rear) fluid, if you haven't.

 

[awasson]

Looks and sounds great!
If the throwout bearing is turning when the clutch is not depressed, the pedal needs adjusting. The throwout bearing does not turn except when the clutch pedal is being pressed. Add free-play to the pedal.
Also check the trans (and rear) fluid, if you haven't.

Thanks Frank,
I’ll check the play on the clutch but I think the fork is all the way out. Maybe it isn’t and it’s just grazing the release tongues on the pressure plate.

I drained and refreshed the transmission oil when I reinstalled the engine but it is massively noisy. I’ve never heard such a noisy gear box. It’s the 3-speed and each gear has a unique sound/noise to it. 1st gear just whines, second, if you give it throttle, has a rattle like a too far advanced engine under load and 3rd has a different rattle unless you’re in the zone where it’s just cruising.

The weather has turned here so I’ll get ready for the next project which is the T5 conversion. I have a 2.4 liter Fox Body Mustang T5 and I’ll need to get the adapter, clutch assembly and yoke. I’ll have the flywheel turned and have everything balanced when I do it. I’ll have the driveshaft balanced as well.

 

[Frank]

I’ll check the play on the clutch but I think the fork is all the way out. Maybe it isn’t and it’s just grazing the release tongues on the pressure plate.

I like to get underneath and move the linkage by hand. If necessary remove the big spring and verify slack at the fork.

I drained and refreshed the transmission oil when I reinstalled the engine but it is massively noisy.

Use Lucas oil stabilizer!! Forget any nay-sayers, that product will help regardless. Many million-mile +transmissions, several personal stories of Lucas making one last for years when it was on it's way out. I have used 100% Lucas in one truck transmission. If you use it, it will affect cold shifting, the gears decelerate quickly between shifts.
The original version, not the synthetic.

 

[awasson]

I like to get underneath and move the linkage by hand. If necessary remove the big spring and verify slack at the fork.

That's what I was planning to do. That would be great if that's all it is.

Use Lucas oil stabilizer!! Forget any nay-sayers, that product will help regardless. Many million-mile +transmissions, several personal stories of Lucas making one last for years when it was on it's way out. I have used 100% Lucas in one truck transmission. If you use it, it will affect cold shifting, the gears decelerate quickly between shifts.
The original version, not the synthetic.

I will try that. If it doesn't work I'm only out a little for my time and if it does then I'm well ahead of the game for very little effort.

Thanks again for the advice!

Aside from the transmission/clutch noise issues, I couldn't be happier with this little engine. It starts right up every time, runs cool and very well and the plugs look great. I pulled them at about 100 miles and they looked like they were brand new still. I used the NGK 7510 Iridium IX plugs. They're not cheap but neither was building the engine. The oil looks good too. It's hard to read the dipstick because it's so clean and isn't all carboned up yet.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[awasson]

Hi all,
I’ve got about 200 miles on the new build and have been tinkering with the timing and jetting. I’ve mentioned my concerns on the Facebook 200/250 Ford Six group but now that I’ve had some time to consider what’s going on in detail, I thought I’d ask here for some tuning advice.

• Clay Smith H-6474-0-B cam painstakingly set within less than a degree to the cam card.
• I’ve got the Weber 38/38 carb from Redline.
• eBay header with y pipe and 2 inch to a small muffler. Will be adding a resonator to make it a little less obnoxious.
• I have my PCV hooked through a catch can to the vacuum on the log.
• I have a HEI distributor with remote coil
• The distributor has springs and bushings to change when centrifugal advance kicks in and maxes out.

I have found that the best idle and driving I can get so far is with vacuum advance disconnected and initial timing somewhere around 14-20 degrees advanced. Initial timing is off the marker so I’m guessing where it actually lands. I can get it to idle somewhat smoothly around 800RPM. From my tests, the centrifugal advance begins at about 1000RPM and if I have my vacuum advance connected, it’s too much advance when it comes off idle and the engine fights with itself. With vacuum advance disconnected, it revs freely and pulls fairly hard.

With this tune, it was stuttering only at the first rev from idle but after that first hiccup, subsequent revs are fine. I spent quite some time working on it this evening and I may have tuned that stutter out now.

My question is: Is it normal for a warmed over Ford 6 200 to have so much initial timing? I don’t consider this build to be particularly tricked out, just a bit hotter than stock and hopefully better at breathing. Should I attempt to get it to idle with around 8-12 degrees advance, change the distributor curve to start the centrifugal advance later and use vacuum advance? I’m not sure that I can achieve that but that was my plan for the next attempt now that I see that the centrifugal advance kicks in so early.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Frank]

Good progress! and glad to hear another success story.
The aftermarket cam is why it needs more base timing. When stock the initial timing is less, and the vacuum advance gets it quickly into range under light/medium load. With that much base timing, only a few * of vacuum advance would be needed, and that at higher rpm cruise. So your tune is not really off, and your perception that vacuum is over-advancing is correct.

Most all of the aftermarket distributors have adjustable vacuum advance cans. My former HEI distributor could be adjusted 0-20+*. Takes an allen wrench into the hose nipple on the canister. And every one I've seen comes with it set at full advance. See if yours adjusts, I bet it does.

If it does, turn it whichever way takes it to minimum advance, some it's CW some it's CCW. Don't worry about the timing light- adjust it to the stop on 0 advance, then open it one turn. Drive. Open another turn, drive. . Just keep tweaking it one turn more vacuum advance at the time till you like it. don't forget to write down how many turns it is, and which way advances/retards. Keeping records of every change can be very valuable later. After finding the best vacuum advance tune, then check it with the light if you want.

Tuning by ear and feel is a learned skill, and is the best way to find the engine's happy place IMO.
Keep us posted!

 

[awasson]

Good progress! and glad to hear another success story.
The aftermarket cam is why it needs more base timing. When stock the initial timing is less, and the vacuum advance gets it quickly into range under light/medium load. With that much base timing, only a few * of vacuum advance would be needed, and that at higher rpm cruise. So your tune is not really off, and your perception that vacuum is over-advancing is correct.

Most all of the aftermarket distributors have adjustable vacuum advance cans. My former HEI distributor could be adjusted 0-20+*. Takes an allen wrench into the hose nipple on the canister. And every one I've seen comes with it set at full advance. See if yours adjusts, I bet it does.

If it does, turn it whichever way takes it to minimum advance, some it's CW some it's CCW. Don't worry about the timing light- adjust it to the stop on 0 advance, then open it one turn. Drive. Open another turn, drive. . Just keep tweaking it one turn more vacuum advance at the time till you like it. don't forget to write down how many turns it is, and which way advances/retards. Keeping records of every change can be very valuable later. After finding the best vacuum advance tune, then check it with the light if you want.

Tuning by ear and feel is a learned skill, and is the best way to find the engine's happy place IMO.
Keep us posted!

Thanks Frank. That is exactly what I needed to hear! It’s been so long since I’ve played around with an engine like this that I forgot entirely about the Allen key adjustment. I had a trick advance can on a SBC I built when I was in my 20’s with the adjustable advance diaphragm.

It is quite noticeable by ear, for sure when it’s running well. It has that smooth howl as it revs when things are synchronized and it just sounds off when they’re not. It’s getting there.

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[awasson]

Just another update. I have discovered that indeed the vacuum advance can be adjusted 0 to +10 degrees. Mechanical advance is currently at +14 degrees advance and can be set to +12, +14, +16, +18.

The issue I was having was a little shake and stumble if I blipped the throttle from idle to get going from a stop. It would only do it on the first blip and then it was fine and any subsequent blips on the throttle were smooth and powerful. This is with about 20 degrees initial advance + 14 degrees mechanical advance and no vacuum advance.

I’ve spent a few days making very small adjustments from the best tune and the current tune is pretty close to perfect but I have vacuum advance disconnected entirely.

We’re having a winter storm, so no shakedown testing at the moment but on Monday night after I buttoned it up and put my tools away, fired her up and went for a spin around the neighborhood. It seemed good and I might have tuned out that little stumble. If that’s the case, then I’ll leave the vacuum disconnected and be happy with the initial and mechanical advance. If not then I’ll figure out a strategy to reduce initial advance and use the vacuum advance to get the spark in front of the fuel charge and reduce the total mechanical advance to 12 degrees.

I was advised that it’s not uncommon to need 20 degrees or so of initial advance but to keep total advance below 34 degrees to prevent bad things from happening.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[drag-200stang]

My engine will not even think about starting without 20 degrees of initial advance. Just work the mechanical and vacuum, to do what the engine likes.