All Small Six My 200 CI mystery

[awasson]

Ok, New numbers for 6 degrees retarded.

First the Centerline method:

INT
-50/1000 = 58.5
+50/1000 = 146.5
(58.5+146.5)/2 = 102.5

EXH
-50/1000 = 165
+50/1000 = 72.5
(165+72.5)/2 = 118.75

LOBE CENTER
(102.5+118.75)/2 = 110.625

Now for the Heel Measurements.

1) Crankshaft clockwise until the Intake lifter raises to .050": I'm not sure how to read this. Is this 5.5° Before TDC?

2) Crankshaft clockwise until the Intake lifter is .050" from returning to the bottom: Again I'm not sure how to read this. Is it 151.5° Before TDC?


3) Crankshaft clockwise until the Exhaust lifter raises to .050": I'm not sure how to read this. Is this 130.5° After TDC?


4) Crankshaft clockwise until the Exhaust lifter is .050" from returning to the bottom: Again I'm not sure how to read this. Is it 7° Before TDC

 

[pmuller9]

1) Yes that is 5.5 BTDC
2) It is 28.5 ABDC or 208.5 ATDC

5.5 + 208.5 = 214 degrees .050" intake duration which is correct.
The intake lobe center 214/2 - 5.5 = 101.5 ATDC

3) is 49.5 BBDC or 229.5 BTDC
4) is 7 BTDC

229.5 - 7 = 222.5 which is 1.5 degrees less than the specified 224 degrees for the .050" exhaust duration. Close enough.

The intake lobe center 222.5/2 +7 = 118.25

(101.5 + 118.25)/2 = 109.75 LSA

It looks like the measured cam specs match the listed cam specs.

The cam is still about 4 degrees too far advanced.

Did you zero the degree wheel using the piston down .050" from TDC method?

 

[awasson]

1) Yes that is 5.5 BTDC
2) It is 28.5 ABDC or 208.5 ATDC

5.5 + 208.5 = 214 degrees .050" intake duration which is correct.
The intake lobe center 214/2 - 5.5 = 101.5 ATDC

3) is 49.5 BBDC or 229.5 BTDC
4) is 7 BTDC

229.5 - 7 = 222.5 which is 1.5 degrees less than the specified 224 degrees for the .050" exhaust duration. Close enough.

The intake lobe center 222.5/2 +7 = 118.25

(101.5 + 118.25)/2 = 109.75 LSA

It looks like the measured cam specs match the listed cam specs.

The cam is still about 4 degrees too far advanced.

Did you zero the degree wheel using the piston down .050" from TDC method?

Thanks for the explanation of those numbers and correcting them. I'm going to re-zero my degree wheel at 0.050" and check one more time. I'm already at -6 and this gear set only retard -8.

Thanks again,
Andrew

 

[awasson]

I just checked TDC at 0.050" before and after. It's bang on 13 degrees both sides so I think it's as accurate as I'll be able to get.

 

[pmuller9]

Thanks for the explanation of those numbers and correcting them. I'm going to re-zero my degree wheel at 0.050" and check one more time. I'm already at -6 and this gear set only retard -8.

Thanks again,
Andrew

The reason for going clockwise for one reading and counterclockwise for the other reading when you zero the degree wheel is because you always want to be pushing the piston upwards to the .050" position before TDC and not pulling it down to the .050" position from TDC.

 

[awasson]

So, I'm still a little concerned about my cam being too advanced. Even if I move it back to the full 8° retarded it'll still be 2 degrees too advanced according to the measurements.

I've read a lot comments from the "who cares, just button it up" community but if it's possible, I want to get it as close to bang on as I can because, why not. If I can't get it bang on, that's fine, I'm certain there are plenty of Ford 200's around with over advanced camshafts.

 

[pmuller9]

So, I'm still a little concerned about my cam being too advanced. Even if I move it back to the full 8° retarded it'll still be 2 degrees too advanced according to the measurements.

I've read a lot comments from the "who cares, just button it up" community but if it's possible, I want to get it as close to bang on as I can because, why not. If I can't get it bang on, that's fine, I'm certain there are plenty of Ford 200's around with over advanced camshafts.

That's why I want you to zero the degree wheel correctly.
You may be off a little which may help.

Use the -8 and see what you get.

 

[awasson]

That's why I want you to zero the degree wheel correctly.
You may be off a little which may help.

Use the -8 and see what you get.

Sounds good. I'll change it to -8 and give it another whirl. It might be a little later but I will report back.

 

[pmuller9]

If you still can't get the cam timing right with the -8, we can look at modifying the crankshaft key configuration.
What is the width of the crankshaft key?

 

[awasson]

If you still can't get the cam timing right with the -8, we can look at modifying the crankshaft key configuration.
What is the width of the crankshaft key?

I just buttoned everything up in the shop. I expect that the key is a standard width key as it fits snuggly with the harmonic balancer and it fits snuggly with the adjustable timing chain sprocket. I will check with a calliper tomorrow and report back.

I did move it back to the -8 degree mark and I set up the degree wheel. It is at 13° at 0.05 reverse and it is at 13° at 0.05 forwards from TDC.

I also did a quick check of the intake lobe at 0.05" back/forwards and at 0.03" back/forwards (sanity check):

INT
-0.05 = 60.5
+0.05 = 148
(60.5+148)/2 = 104.25

INT
-0.03 = 70.25
+0.03 = 138.5
(70.25+138.5)/2 = 104.375

I didn't have time for the Exhaust lobe center yet or the heel measurements, yet. I'll do those tomorrow and see where I am at.

If I simply look at these results and nothing else, it looks like my cam is advanced a little less than one degree beyond where I want it. That's not bad. We'll have to see what the more precise heel measurements show.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[drag-200stang]

Have you checked lobe lift on the intake and exhaust, if not can you? I am curious what it is.

 

[awasson]

Have you checked lobe lift on the intake and exhaust, if not can you? I am curious what it is.

I haven’t but I sure can. Unfortunately, I don’t think I’ll get to it today though, we’ve got family over.

 

[awasson]

I spent a few minutes on the phone with Clay Smith and spoke with a guy by the name of George. I described the situation with my advanced camshaft timing and he suggested that at with my crank gear retarded 8° and my centerline timing events on INT at 104.25° and EXH at 116.625° that I'm so close to 105 and 115 that it should be fine. He also mentioned that I could move the whole shooting match back one tooth and then I could probably go through the exercise and advance it to get close to the 105 / 115. So for my purposes, I'm buttoning it up at -8 degrees and moving onto the rest of the build.

Oh, @drag-200stang asked about lobe lift on intake and exhaust so I put a dial indicator on each one and measured it:

INT: 0.3075”
EXH: 0.29”

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[awasson]

Oh jeeze, it’s been a while since I made an update. Engine is complete and dropped in in the car this afternoon.

Lots yet to do before I can fire her up. I need to install the radiator and the transmission. The clutch, pressure plate and bell housing are mounted up. I need to install the starter too but that a 2 bolt job. I also need to fill with break-in oil and prime the system.

I also need to make up the exhaust since I removed the cast iron manifold and put on a header. I also need to rerun the fuel line, put on a fuel pressure regulator and mod the throttle linkage for the Weber 38/38. I’m bypassing the heater while I rebuild the heater housing and replace the ducts and old hardware. The heater fan motor is fine though so not a huge deal; just cleanup and new hardware.

Here are a few photos of the assembly and installation.

 

[78_200_C4]

What is the diameter of the intake bore?
Is it the stock small log restrictive 1-1/2" intake bore?
According to David of the "The Ford Falcon Six cylinder Handbook" the stock large log 1-3/4" intake bore only needs a 256 .400 lift cam.
Below photos are of an easily enlarged 65 200 small log intake bore.

 

[Frank]

What is the diameter of the intake bore?
Is it the stock small log restrictive 1-1/2" intake bore?
According to David of the "The Ford Falcon Six cylinder Handbook" the stock large log 1-3/4" intake bore only needs a 256 .400 lift cam.
Below photos are of an easily enlarged 65 200 small log intake bore.
View attachment 23330
View attachment 23331

1.75"D flows 36% more than a 1.5"D. Anything opened up beyond that continues the exponential increase of volume.

 

[78_200_C4]

1.75"D flows 36% more than a 1.5"D. Anything opened up beyond that continues the exponential increase of volume.

Here is the enlarged 1-3/4" intake bore on my D7 head. The enlarged small log bore was a little egg shaped but equal to a 1-3/4" bore. Both enlargements were free with a carbide bit in a die grinder.

 

[awasson]

That's great info on increasing the intake bore. I think what I'd like to do is find a large log head, mill it to reduce the combustion chamber size and mill the log to take the carb without an adapter. I'd probably want to put some sort of heat shield between the exhaust and the carb though.

I was also playing around with the idea of getting the tri-power offy setup. That might be a good way to manage the log issues.

 

[awasson]

This is what the header looks like with a couple of short heat cycles. It’s running open headers so I only fired it up long enough to get it up to operating temperature, check for leaks and get a feel for how it runs. It’s insanely loud but very smooth and more responsive than I had expected considering I have not set up the timing or carb. It just runs great and starts right up.

Until I can get the duals built for it, I have to get a Y pipe and a reducer to connect the open collectors to the original single exhaust. Then I can do the break in.

I’m really happy with how quickly it started and how smooth it is above idle. It sounds like a float plane, lol.

 

[Frank]

This is what the header looks like with a couple of short heat cycles. It’s running open headers so I only fired it up long enough to get it up to operating temperature, check for leaks and get a feel for how it runs. It’s insanely loud but very smooth and more responsive than I had expected considering I have not set up the timing or carb. It just runs great and starts right up.

Until I can get the duals built for it, I have to get a Y pipe and a reducer to connect the open collectors to the original single exhaust. Then I can do the break in.

I’m really happy with how quickly it started and how smooth it is above idle. It sounds like a float plane, lol.

Really nice look all 'round in there! Just FYI- max power, especially lower-end torque is always obtained with a single exhaust, including on V8's. Use a smooth Y into a single. If you want duals, at least use a X pipe or crossover to connect the two sides, or you're throwing away at least 15 lbs of torque.